Working with Kontakt


#1

Congratulations Brad. Sincerely !!
Cantabile 3 is great !! It’s clear, clean, and mutch more useful than version 2

But I need help because I’ve a problem with Kontakt : Even using presudo-presets there is a delay when changing from one to other states (“Entire bank” disabled, of course). I mean, when kontakt needs to load another instrument. If there is no change it works fine and the sound is not interrupted.

In Cantabile 2, using sub-sessions and the “entire bank” option enabled, the changes occurred almost immediately. I miss this feature

I’ve tried creating two states with two instruments loaded in Kontakt. The idea was that in the first state one ot the instruments was muted, and in the second the muted was the other : the change is right! but the muted/unmuted switch don’t works … oooh

Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Thank you


#2

Edit made: because before I was describing setup for multi timbral Kontakt (sorry my bad). The following is much leaner for selecting single loaded instruments and does the job well.

Hi drsound,

I have been adapting Kontakt for use in version 3 in the manner you speak of. Brad suggested using a different keyboard input routing for each state with each state pointed at a different MIDI channel in Kontakt (by default when you load Kontakt the MIDI channels are automatically assigned starting with 1 …16). So after you load your Kontakt instruments you create a keyboard routing to the first midi channel in Kontakt, then change it to a different midi channel in each state change (in the same routing slot). This provides instant switching between Kontakt Slots. Just remember you don’t want to mute your Kontakt slots using this method. Hope this helps.


#3

Hi Gonzalo,

Thanks! Glad you like it!

Hrm… unless there’s a bug and it’s loading the bank twice the speed should be the same - pseudo presets and entire bank behaviour are essentially the same thing (and essentially the same as loading an fxb).

(If loading is slower than loading an equivalent FXB, let me know)

@dave_dore is right… loading kontakt with multiple instruments on different channels is definitely the better approach. Not only is switching then a trivial MIDI routing change, but instruments won’t be cut off when you switch.

Just one note about what Dave said. In Cantabile 3, you don’t need to create multiple routes and enable different ones in different states to do the switching. States can control the target channel of the MIDI route so just setup one route and select the appropriate target channel in each saved state.


#4

I saw that and was editing the post when I saw your new post. Thanks for that, as I said in the edit I was thinking more about multi timbral setups for layering Kontakt instruments.


#5

Ok. Let’s imagine you’ve two sounds loaded in Kontakt and assigned to different channels, and two states directing the MIDI entry to one or other channel. Change between states is perfect.
But when you change to another state, with another instrument (using pseudo-presets o with “entire bank” activated) there is a delay. The delay happens even in the new satate kontakt is empty.

Kontakt launchs a pop up window to show the load progres. For instruments with not very much samples you can see only a flash. This delay (2-3 seconds) happens before the pop up window. The question is : What is kontakt doing previoulsy to the load?
I thinked the problem comes because I’ve a large library. Maybe Kontakt was rebuilding the database. Then I’ve installed Cantabile in another computer with a very short library. The problem remains.
Kontakt is doing something different, and worst, that in Cantabile 2

I know It’s not a critical think but, please, keep in mind

Thank You.


#6

Hi Gonzalo,

Yep, it’ll be Kontakt doing “Something”. What it’s doing half the time I have no idea - even just closing the GUI can be slow and as far as I can tell it’s unrelated to Cantabile - I’ve seen it in other hosts too.

The progress dialog that Kontakt displays presents all sorts of issues for Cantabile since while it’s displayed it possible to access say the File menu and load a different session, or perhaps delete the plugin (while it’s loading) which basically causes a self implosion.

Latest build should improve this, but I’m still getting reports of issues with Kontakt while switching libraries and I plan to investigate soon. If you get crashes using Kontakt please send them through with any details on how to reproduce.

Brad


#7

No crashes. All works fine
Thank you!


#8

Hey Brad!! I’ve found it!!

The solution is to put Kontakt inside rack, create a pseudo-preset for it without samples, and to keep this rack in all songs (even if is used or not)
This will prevent that Kontakt opens an closes in every song change.

And even better …

In my live performances I need 8 plugins. Of course I’m using one or other (or maybe 4) depending on the song
Now I’m working with only a rack containing everything. My songs have usualy, a state in each song. Then, the trick is to create all the states needed into the rack. Every song will select it.

In this way the transitions between song are better than in Cantabile 2 !!


#9

Important suggestion for Kontakt users

Every time you Kontakt is loaded it scan his data base. That causes a delay.
For faster loading you have to remove all the database paths in (Kontakt) "Options/Database"
Disable too the options “automatically add loaded…” and “include samples in data base scan…”

Now it’s not necessary to use pseudo-presets or racks. Kontakt will load quickly

There is only a problem: from now on you’ll not be able to search sounds using the Kontakt’s database funcions in Cantabile … but you can do it in the standalone version of Kontakt !

Best regards


#10

Thank you so much for this hint! It’s obvious in hindsight, at least for someone like me who never uses the database features within Kontakt. But I never thought about it.

Cheers


#11

Cantabile Lite worked fine with Kontakt for me. What I notice with some people is they click and click after intitial click because their impatient (my wife,for one). Kontakt is slow and touchy. Doesn’t take much to goof it up.


#12

Hi, I worked since many years with Cantabile 2.0 and begin now to change to V3.

After a few days in experiencing with V3 I was successful using setlists and within songs
to play through Kontakt libraries.
I use Cantabile also to play through all my favourite presets/multis of (e.g.) Kontakt.
To use the preloading function vo V3 (this is absolutely great in working especially with Kontakt!),
I have now around 100 songs in a setlist. Behind each song I have 1 instance of Kontakt
with the saved preset/multi. So on the end, when I load this setlist, Cantabile loads
50 times a Kontakt VSTi with individual sample/presets/multis behind
This works. BUT, how more instance of Kontakt I load by add new song, the time of loading
increases.
I play through the song by switching the last two keys on the left side of my hardware synthesizer;
the best way for me since years.

Is there a better workflow/a better use of Cantabile for my issue?
For example: I would have a best of library for all my Epiano presets, which I have in around
12-14 VSTi with at least in total 100 presets. In order to use the preloading function: does
that mean, that have to build 100 racks (1 rack per song)?
If I combine in some songs different VSTi or different presets, then I come up to 150-200
VSTi instances.


#13

Hi Bladerunner,

How many Kontakt patches do you need for a setlist and are there a great many similar patches? I ask because I think this problem could be solved by using ‘linked racks’ (they only load once a setlist when using pre-load and can be shared across songs) These racks were made for this very problem, cutting down on the number of times you need to load a vsti into a song during a set list. In your method it’s every song, but if you put all the piano patches from 100 songs in 1 linked rack and then placed it in all your songs it would only load Kontakt once when you loaded the set list and it would also also load all the samples to memory for the whole bunch of patches in the rack. You can then pick the rack state from the drop down list on the rack to set the patch for the song you are creating. So that way you could eliminate 99 Kontakt instances. Hope this makes sense, there are more details at the guide site page. https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/guides/racks

Dave


#14

@Bladerunner

Dave types much quicker than I, but I was typing very much the same thing. Linked Racks have saved me plenty of load time and changes instantly.:grinning:


#15

What @dave_dore said! I have a Kontakt multi in 3 of my regular-use linked racks. One with various piano sounds, one with pads and such, and one with strings and orchestra instruments. in each of the 3 racks, I use a rack state to define each patch (sound). Then I use C3 bindings on rack state load to select which instrument of the multis to select to make up a sound. So i construct a SONG with any number or racks. Each rack within the song has a pull-down menu from which I select the patch I want.

To me this seems to be the best workflow with Kontakt. I start out building each rack with a multi and only loading 2 or 3 instruments. As time has gone by, I have maybe 5 to 20 instruments in the 3 main racks. They all work exactly the same way. A rack state triggers a binding which is a MIDI patch change pointed at the Konkat multi of several instruments. The patch change causes the correct instrument to be selected.


#16

@dave_dore
@Corky
@RackedBrain
Thanky you very much for the quick response.
I also structure my VSTi by genre like Piano, Epiano, Orchestra, PADs and so on.

So I understood, I have to solve the issue by using state racks.
@dave_dore the no. of patches is nearly equal to no. of “songs”…all different patches.

Is that the right workflow?

  1. Generate new setlist
  2. Generate a first song
  3. Go to state and generate a linked rack and give it a name
  4. double klick on the rack and insert one plugin (e.g. Kontakt)?
  5. select a patch and save the song
  6. copy the first song as e.g. “2. song”
  7. Go to state rack and change the patch within (e.g. again in Kontakt)
    and save the 2. song
  8. same with song 3-100
    ?
    How the 100 patches could be preloaded (in e.g. Kontakt) in only one and the same VSTi?
    Or should I load again 100 times the e.g. Kontakt plugin into the linked rack?
    Or is it done, cause the copy of the first song into the 2. song and changing the patch in e.g. Kontakt is the way?
    With the workflow in using linked racks, do I further switch through the songs or the state rack list.
    I switch via the last left 2 keys from my hardware synthsizer to next or previous
    patch/preset/(song)…midi assigns to the 2 keys.

#17

Hi Bladerunner,

You use more patches than most folks so your requirements may not fit the model I was describing. In my way it works like this. Using your list from above as a guide :

  1. Create first song and name it
  2. create a new linked rack and name it (eg Kontakt Pianos)
  3. open the new rack and add an instance of Kontakt
  4. fill the wanted slots in Kontakt (up to 16) with piano patches I would use in a set and they will automatically be on different MIDI channels. If Kontakt slots not all full I can still add more later if I want.
  5. create and name Rack States inside the opened rack for all the piano patches I have in the Kontakt plugin ( for my example say 16 rack states ) and wire each state to the slot in the Kontakt plugin. When done save and close rack.
  6. select the rack state from the drop down in the rack slot at song level I want for this song
  7. when done save song and either add to an open set list or just start a new song
  8. The next time I need one of the 16 piano patches in a song that is being created I just add the existing linked rack (Kontakt Piano) instead of making a new rack to the song and then use the dropdown list I made earlier to pick a sound for that song.

So theoretically I could have 16 different kontakt piano sounds in any number of songs and do it all with just one instance of Kontakt loaded for the whole set list. You may be able to organize your sounds so you don’t need as many Kontakt instances but I don’t know. This is how I did it.

Hope this helps explain

Dave


#18

Hi dave_dore,

thanks for the Information!
I tried that directly after your posting here.

This is really a hard concentration work :slight_smile:
Cause I tried that with Kontakt multis with in average 4-5 instrumtents
behind, I lost easy, which instruments were in the original multi :slight_smile:
So I loaded after each multi an empty Kontakt Instrument, to have
a remark.

Your workflow works, but it would takes a lot of time in order to organize
all my hundrets of Kontakt best of patches/mulitis :wink:


#19

Don’t forget also that you can create a bank in Kontakt, and it will pre-load all the samples required for the whole bank, allowing you to switch between many patches quickly. So this is an alternative to using Kontakt multis, for sound you’re not playing concurrently.

Neil


#20

In fact, just to add to my own post, I think you can put all the Kontakt patches you use into a bank, and then load different Kontakt multis from that bank. Which means you could access a huge variety of sets of concurrent Kontakt patches in a single instance of Kontakt, and have the whole lot pre-loaded.

As far as RAM usage is concerned - do you really use 100 actually different sample sets in Kontakt, in a single setlist, or are some variants of the same underlying sample set?

Neil