Totally confused concerning racks and rack states (C3)

[terrybritton]

Also, tried two racks with different contents, thinking I could suspend one and activate the other in a toggle via song state change, but they remain in the same state. The one activated does not switch to suspended and the suspended one does not switch to active.

So, still a bit confused, but at least not “totally” any more!
Terry

[Torsten]

Terry

try activating “Processing mode” in the “state behavior” list (bottom left in song state view) for these two racks. I think it is off by default; you need to set it to on for these two racks.

State behavior can be responsible for a number of funny unintended consequences (why is it set to “on” by default for the “enabled” property of audio routes, but “off” for racks’ processing mode??

Whenever something does not behave as expected on state changes, check “state behavior” for just about everything in your setup…

Cheers,

Torsten

[Torsten]

@terrybritton

I noticed racks do not have an accommodation for external hardware synths, but that’s ok - the Global rack works fine for me.

What is it you want to do with external hardware synths that can’t be done with racks?

What I’ve experimented with:

• create a rack for a hardware synth - this rack has MIDI In and MIDI out
• within the rack create one or more routes connecting the rack’s MIDI in to the physical MIDI output the synth is connected to
• create an audio route from the physical audio port your synth is connected to into a chain of plugins to process your synth’s output; send the end result to your rack’s audio out
• use triggers (song state load) to send program changes to your synth on state changes → select a different preset for every song state on your external synth
• what you cannot (yet) do (or am I missing something) is use bindings to connect controllers to control parameters on your synth - you need to use routes and filters / controller mapping to do that

With all this together, you can effectively encapsulate a physical hardware synth and make it look like any other Cantabile rack (control it via rack states, route its output all across your Cantabile song).

Not bad isn’t it??

Cheers,

Torsten

[humphrey]

Hi, thanks for respondig,

To be completely clear: I had a discussion on this item with brad and he gave me sufficient explanation, why things are complicated. I understand and totally accept this!

My intention is probably driven by worflows I learned in the 80th (and this is the only thing I disagree with torsten ;-): if I’d take the “19’ hardware” approach, I’d definitely expect to have the same sounds available for more than one instance - this is what most of the multitimbral rack expanders provide (I’m pretty sure as I own some of them). For me this is still much more comfortable than predeciding to create several racks for the same plugin and organize them by sounds.

But hey, as often it’s all a question of workflow and sometimes it’s necessary to change it if necessary. Maybe it is a very useful idea to organize the racks soundwise as torsten described.

So thanks for hinting me to this and kind regards, humphrey

[Torsten]

@humphrey

My intention is probably driven by worflows I learned in the 80th (and this is the only thing I disagree with torsten : if I’d take the “19’ hardware” approach, I’d definitely expect to have the same sounds available for more than one instance - this is what most of the multitimbral rack expanders provide (I’m pretty sure as I own some of them).

same here - cut my teeth on the first MIDI synths in the 80s, both multitimbral as well as single-purpose. Did a lot of stuff on my JV 2080 and its brethren - even lugged them around in a 19’’ rack for live usage

But of course a JV-2080 is a beast specifically built to be multi-timbral, with its 16 voices (and not a single one more), with effects needing to be shared and allocated, in itself a “closed box”. And no amount of fiddling would make my DX-7 16 voice multi-timbral - I’d have to go and buy more of them…

So I guess to replicate this experience you’d need either a truly multi-timbral VSTi (like Kontakt or HalionSonic et al.) or you could actually create a multi-timbral rack with two or more organs in it. Racks can have multiple MIDI inputs (or you could actually go the 19’’ multi-timbral route and filter routes to the various instances by MIDI channel). Knock yourself out and create a multi-timbral monster with 16 VB3 instances in one rack and just activate the ones that you need…

But the problem remains that these VB3s don’t share their presets - Cantabile’s banks are instance-specific. So you’ll still not get to a truly multi-timbral experience.

But maybe it is still a more efficient workflow for you - just build a rack with multiple VB3s and everything is at least in one place. And you can build wonderfully complex multi-organ setups within a rack and recall any such setup with one rack state…

Cheers,

Torsten

[humphrey]

Well, all in all it`s as often: the hunt for the ultimate final solution.

But I think I`ll be able to live with the things as they are and get around these small problems

Cheers, humphrey

[terrybritton]

Torsten,

“Processing mode” was the secret sauce that enabled Linplug’s instruments to work with the racks!

Thank you - I never would have guessed that one!

Terry

[terrybritton]

Torsten,

Figured it out thanks to your help here! Thanks for getting me on the right track. Now to find a good naming scheme for racks so I know what synth preset is loaded!

I have the synth coming through Cantabile and through a few plugins to get warmed up. Totally cool! Acceptable latency, too.

Terry

[RickRepsher]

I have just started experimenting with rack states, and I’m just not seeing why, after saving multiple states… nothing really seems to have saved. I do not have multiple “sounds”, just the same one multiple times. Do I have to check every parameter in the rack state options. I have found the same issues with Arturia synths and VB3.

It seems the more I learn, the more I’m lost…

Thanks,

Rick

[brad]

Hi Rick,

It’s a bit hard to tell what’s going awry without seeing more details. Firstly, have you watched the walkthrough video - it covers all the basics.

Failing grab some screenshots showing the problem and post them here, or email me and we’ll get it sorted.

Brad

[Corky]

Rick

There are also many user discussions and explanations in the search engine in this forum. Here are a few:

Managing Rack States

My rack states are broken into two groups - at the top I have “generic” rack state names, like “Warm strings pad” or whatever, and these I give a single program number, like 1 or 14 or whatever. Then after all my generic patches I have a “separator” rack state, named “=========”. Then after that I have song-specific rack states, named just after the song, all with bank 1, so for example 1.1 or 1.14 etc. This keeps them nicely separated. For some racks where I have lots of different categorie…

Managing Rack States

I don’t think I’m the ultimate authority here - guess everybody will use Cantabile their own way. But personally, I tend to mix just like you do: I have a number of generic patches like “Soul Organ” or “Blues Organ” that I use in a number of songs (my “Soul Organ” patch sounds great when layered with a piano and controlled via expression pedal). And of course, I only change these very carefully, since a change will affect all songs that incorporate them. Whenever I have the urge to edit one of…

Totally confused concerning racks and rack states (C3)

Double-click it … really, it was that easy??? Can’t wait to jump in there a little later this evening! At last - the secret entrance is revealed! (Tried right-clicking everywhere - never tried double-clicking anything!) Thanks, Dave! I’ll get back with any findings or new questions, but I think I’m “in” now. Terry

Totally confused concerning racks and rack states (C3)

Hey Terry, no need to duplicate Dave’s pointers on how to edit racks and how to create rack states. Just on the “useful scenarios for using rack states”: it helps if you think of racks as preset-based 19’’ expanders in your setup: you create rack states as you would create presets on your hardware synths. For any song, you just select the synths you want to use (i.e. racks) and connect them to your keyboard using routes and mix the levels of your selected synths using individual rack levels. I…

Totally confused concerning racks and rack states (C3)

Just one more pointer - in case it isn’t obvious: a rack doesn’t need to consist on one plugin only. My piano rack, for example, consists of two main plugins (Pianoteq and Addictive Keys), plus a number of refinement plugins (EQs, chorus, compressor, and a main volume plugin). For any given rack state, only one of the main plugins is active, and a selected set of refinement plugins. Only the volume plugin is always on, wired to a MIDI assignment (CC #7). Another hint: racks don’t need to have j…

Some from this thread as well.

Regards

Corky

[RickRepsher]

Okay, so after reading Torsten’s post here:

VB3 (GSI): rotary speed and sustain control

Let me offer you a somewhat complicated but extremely powerful solution. I’ve set my VB3 in its global settings to treat sustain pedal as sustain and not to control leslie. Important: this is a GLOBAL setting of VB3; it isn’t controlled by plugin parameters, and therefore there is nothing you can do to change this with rack or song states! Essentially, you can only control “Preset parameters” of VB3 with Cantabile song / rack states. Now I use Cantabile’s route MIDI filter settings to influenc…

about VB3 only saving preset parameters, I see that (for VB3) I need to create a preset, and then select “Selected Program” in the Rack State Options.

That seems to work fine… the devil seems to be in the details of exactly what mix options you are selecting.

The Arturia stuff still has me stumped. Has anyone else used any of their V5 suite?

Or Lounge Lizard for that matter. Do you have to select all 80 - some parameters to save the state?

Thanks!

Rick

[Torsten]

@RickRepsher

The Arturia stuff still has me stumped. Has anyone else used any of their V5 suite?

Or Lounge Lizard for that matter. Do you have to select all 80 - some parameters to save the state?

Hey Rick,

no, you shouldn’t need to select all parameters to save the state - as long as you stick to using presets for sounds!

So just to make sure of the basics: a rack is pretty much like a song; it contains plugins (with their presets) and routing between them. And just as song states allow you to save a configuration of a song, a rack state allows you to save a configuration of the plugins, routes and bindings within a rack for later recall. The cool thing in this is that you can recall control rack states from song level, so that for every song state, you can set your racks to specific configurations. OK so far?

Now to control the state of any plugin (effect or instrument) within your rack, it is normally advisable to simply use presets - these work with most current plugins (with some nasty exceptions like OP-X II - its preset system doesn’t cooperate well with Cantabile’s).

So for any instrument you use in your rack, you should use them like 19’’ synth boxes: create presets and recall them for your rack states. So if you have a rack with a piano plugin and an EQ, you could have multiple rack states

• State 1: “Rock Piano”: a bright grand piano preset in your piano plugin and an EQ preset that cuts the lows and boosts presence and brilliance.
• State 2: “Ballad Piano”: a more mellow preset in your piano plugin and an EQ preset that boosts warmth and reduces harshness

Now, to be able to do this, you need to create presets in your piano and your EQ plugin. Simply select one of the presets in the upper bar of the plugin window, rename it using the hamburger menu if you wish, and then make the plugin settings you want. NOTE: all changes you make will instantly become part of this preset - no explicit “save”. But: you’ll still need to save your rack for these preset changes to become permanent.

Now with Lounge Lizard or Arturia plugins, it’s exactly the same: open the plugin GUI, select the Cantabile preset you want to edit, then use the Plugin GUI to create your sound. You can also use the internal preset management of your plugin (e.g. the Arturia library) to select one of its presets, then fine-tune the sound - the current state of the plugin will be saved in the Cantabile preset (no need to save the changed sound back to the Arturia library).

The only time you’ll want to select the individual parameters of your plugin in state behavior is when you DON’T want to work with presets but only influence individual parameters with rack state changes. This may be useful for sample-based plugins, where you want to keep the loaded preset intact to avoid re-loading large sample libraries, but maybe change individual parameters via states.

So for all well-behaved plugins, you shouldn’t need to do more than create presets and then select them for your rack states. The key “state behavior” box you need to tick is then “Selected Program”. The next most useful state behavior is “gain” - this is what I use to adjust the output level of the selected preset per state.

Hope this helps. And if you haven’t done so, be sure to watch @brad’s great videos on states (rack states are pretty much the same as song states, so that video will help understand rack states as well) and on racks.

Cheers,

Torsten

[RickRepsher]

Torsten,

Thanks for that info. I think I kind of hit on this last night while I was playing around. My confusion was that if you create a rack, put a plug-in in it, and save it… you are pretty much done. I thought I was supposed to be doing the same thing with rack states. I must have missed that either in the documentation, video, or forum. I didn’t even see the Cantabile Preset part.

Is there a way to name the Cantabile Preset? Or is the “common practice” to just say I have an Wavestation patch called “GravyTrain”, saved as Cantabile “Preset 14”, saved as Rack State “GravyTrain”?

Did that make sense?

Thanks

Rick

[Torsten]

@RickRepsher

Is there a way to name the Cantabile Preset? Or is the “common practice” to just say I have an Wavestation patch called “GravyTrain”, saved as Cantabile “Preset 14”, saved as Rack State “GravyTrain”?

you can rename Cantabile presets using the hamburger menu on the right:

Now you can call the Cantabile preset “Gravy Train” as well…

Cheers,

Torsten

[BigTwisty]

One shortcut I’ve been using is to bind the Rack State On Load Program to set the plugin preset. Then whatever program number you set the Rack State to, that preset automatically gets loaded in the contained plugin. As long as I ensure I don’t create a new rack state with an already used program number I know I’m not overwriting a preset used in another song.

[Torsten]

@BigTwisty

One shortcut I’ve been using is to bind the Rack State On Load Program to set the plugin preset

Not sure what advantage this brings - why not simply set the plugin’s “selected program” in the state behavior? Is there something I’m missing here?

Cheers,

Torsten

[BigTwisty]

There there 2 advantages when creating new presets.

1. It removes a couple of workflow steps when creating future presets. I’m lazy AF.
2. It reduces the chance of using the same preset in 2 rack states, which would cause one rack state to inadvertently change the other creating potential issues in other songs. Kind of a poke-yoke implementation of youare familiar with manufacturing processes.

[Torsten]

OK, I get it - you want to absolutely ensure that each state has a unique preset in your plugin and that you don’t inadvertently edit the wrong preset.

I tend to work with fewer presets and re-use a bit - but for those racks where each state represents a different plugin preset, this makes lots of sense!

Cheers,

Torsten

[BigTwisty]

This is also expandable to multi plugin racks. You can switch presets in all internal pluginsat once and get individual mixes for each rack state automatically. Where it doesn’t work is with plugins where the pseudo-presets ARE the presets from the plugin. In those cases you just handle them with the rack states directly as usual.