So, bottom line...a Song can never over-ride a rack-is that correct?

I am still having major difficulty in getting these operations. Maybe its the nomenclature of the controls, maybe it’s just me (probably) but from the questions I have asked (and yes maybe they were the wrong questions) it seems that a Song (which as I read it IS the main working tool of C3) can never override a deafult setting in a rack.

All I want to do is use racks in songs but then have all the settings and mixing I carefully create in the Song view still actually being there when I re-load the song at a performance.

I do not want “trick routing” or arcane (very!) systems of getting what I consider to be a pretty basic function happening.

I thought when buying the upgrade to Performer that the “racks” feature would simply allow me to create banks of “presets” of the VSTi’s I choose to use that can be recalled much the same way as using a hardware synth. But then the Song level of operation is where I could setup all the live audio aspects. Volumes/pans/effects of parts and then expect thsi “Song” setup to be the overriding control setup.

This is nto the case as from the answers I ahve been given this is some deep editing ritual that must be done to achieve these goals.

TBH, I think it would ahve been better just sticking to Solo and setting up each VST as required WITHIN the song structure. All these racks and hidden operations are just way overkill.

That people here using C3 in the studio find all this arcane routing and shuffling appealing and are happy exploring just how complicated they can make things of benefit to their situation is fine - good luck to you and I’m happy it satisifies and fills your time. Me, I just need simple operation - set a synth, set some effects,set a backing track and off we go!

Anyhoo, bottom line is I have wasted weeks setting up racks and trying to use them in songs only to find I should have just stuck to using the simple song method.

PS: Please do not refer me to the rack videos and manuals I have watched them and read them, and I do get the concept - but in real everyday terms though it does not work for me!

Hi @pax-eterna

Sorry to hear you’re having this trouble. I’m struggling a bit to understand where it’s falling apart for you.

It sounds like want to create a rack with various plugins and then override some settings in each song/song part? If so, this is exactly what the export state behaviour stuff is supposed to do.

If it’s just simple levels and mix levels you’re trying to adjust per song then you can also do this by adjusting the levels on the routes between racks in the song.

I’m happy to help sort this out - perhaps email me a couple of sample files and explain which settings you want to adjust from the song and I’ll take a closer look.


Thanks for the reply Brad. You see I don’t want to adjust levels on routes between racks. I dont want racks with various plugins. Okay, I’ll try to break it down even further

load a BASS rack (with a single sound)
load a KEYS rack (with a single sound)
load a MEDIA Player with single backing track
Back out of the rack views and go back to the main song view window.

Then I want to control the mix volume levels of these at the song level, and then have this mix re-load when the song is next used.

What happens at the moment is when the song is re-loaded the (nominal) volume level that is present in the RACK over-rides any mix level settings I made previously at the song level. And I have tried checking and unchecking boxes as advised by others in the rack view, but this seems to make no difference.

You see, all I want to use the rack for is a simple single sound preset. I want the rack to control nothing.

Hi @pax-eterna,

I’ve just tried recreating a similar setup here. Firstly just setting different gains in each song on each rack seems to work fine:

Song 1:

Song 2:

A couple of notes though:

  1. There seems to be an issue with the song not prompting to save if you only change the rack gain level (I’ll look into this). In the meantime make sure you save before switching songs.
  2. Make the gain settings in the song - not in the rack.
  3. In my case each rack was routing directly from MIDI in → Plugin → Main Speakers. If you route the audio out of the rack’s audio output back to the song and then to the speakers you can also tweak the gain level on the route in the parent song from the rack to the speakers.

Let me know if any of that helps.


thx Brad…I have cc 7 mapped from my controller to the vst volume control not the gain slider. When I make the slider adjustments on the hardware,when at the song level, I then save the song, however when I reload the song whatever vol is in the rack being used STILL overrides the song setting. I find the vol controls within the vst to be more accurate than the gain sliders.But if you recommend using them to get what I need done then that’s the way I should go I guess.

Hi @pax-eterna

Do you mean a volume setting in the plugin itself, or Cantabile’s plugin gain slider on the plugin slot.

In either case you should still be able to control this on a per-song basis by selecting the appropriate exported state setting. By default all settings in the rack are controlled by the rack and it’s states. You need to explicitly select settings you want exported to the song.

eg: to export Cantabile’s gain setting for a plugin to the song, turn on the first checkbox for “Gain Level” on the plugin:

eg: to export a plugin parameter, in this case the plugin’s “Envelope Decay” parameter:

And here you can see a different value for each song - even though the plugin is in a rack referenced by the song:



Brad, the volume control within the VST itself is what it is assigned to. At the moment the C3 gain liders are all at 0 dB gain.

What is the exported state setting? fwiw the Gain Level in all of the racks is set as ticked on but I have not seen the “north-west” facing arrow?? Does that mean something?

And if this is on, does it mean that, even though the rack is closed for editing, and then at the song level window if I change the volume of a plugin using the hardware controller slider (assigned directly to the plugin vol control), this new level WILL get saved so that when the song is re-loaded later this new volume level will be recalled? Or again wil the default vol level of the rack get loaded instead?

Hi @pax-eterna

It should appear when any state controllable object in a rack is selected.

It should - if the exported behaviour (the arrow) is checked and the song is saved.