SCROLL DELUXE 📜 a Utility Rack for Cantabile 3 Performer - Mar 2021

dave_dore · March 14, 2021, 5:02pm

Hi All,

I’m sure I’ve saturated this area of discussion with all my racks but felt that it needed to be added that from looking at the Trello board plus following Brads’ work on the GUI toolkit and some hints from him, that new features coming to Cantabile 3 will likely address some of our scrolling and timeline related requests at some point. I look forward to any additional features for that in a big way. Our communities’ efforts to discuss and develop (@Torsten s’ "Live Prompter) and bring solutions to live note presentation has been leading to a desire for integrated solutions that could match what is available and possibly expand it as part of Cantabiles’ core management of media tracks and showing of notes and graphics. I’m both curious and excited about what’s to come …

So, I hope this is the last of the Dave Scroll rack concepts and that it is helpful in the interim or as another choice to scroll things with. I also got past my shyness about my voice and made a talkie video to hopefully make a utility rack like this with it’s multiple user settings and configurations easier to set up and use. I had a blast making this one and want to Thank @SteveK for helping me test and asking for some cool features that I added. For the purpose of abbreviating the words “Cantabile 3 Performer” I will sometimes use “C♪3” to refer to the Cantabile 3 Performer host throughout this instruction set.

This is a more deluxe version of the SIMPLE SCROLL rack already out there. In addition to the features it has which are listed below, it also now includes an additional delay value that can be triggered in the course of the song playback by Transport position bindings to a CC4 momentary switch input to the rack. I also created input bindings that allow operation of the scroll rack independent of or in concert with the main transport through the use of buttons, foot switches etc …

In it’s simplest usage it automatically scrolls the Show Notes with no other bindings required assuming there are no inter song scroll pauses and is tied to the C♪3 main transport commands. It does however allow use of CC switches in addition to the Main transport commands to use the extra pause and FF features. It will behave in the following way from the main transport controls

Play will start the Pre-Scroll delay period if any and then the scrolling event will automatically follow
Pause will pause the Scrolling and Resume or hitting Play again will continue the scrolling
Stop will stop the Transport & set the Scroll rack to the top position
CC4 Momentary Swt will trigger the pre – programmed pause period
CC5 Momentary Swt will pause the Scrolling when pressed and resume it when released
CC6 Momentary Swt will fast forward the Scrolling and releasing it will return it to regular speed

The rack can also be used as a teleprompter in standalone mode with no connection to the transport controls. It is for acoustic performance or oratory use and uses all CC switches shown here

The following switches mentioned above are some CC numbers to use when operating the scroll rack remotely and in Stand Alone or Teleprompter mode.

CC2 sets the Show Notes to the top position and resets the Scroll rack ready to start the cycle again in Stand Alone only.

CC3 is starts the starts the Scrolling. It also acts as a Scroll resume switch in Stand Alone only.

CC4 triggers the Triggered Pause in both the Transport Linked mode & Stand Alone

CC5 pauses the Scrolling when pressed & resumes when released in both the Transport Linked and Stand Alone modes

CC6 Fast Forwards the Scrolling when pressed & Resumes regular scrolling when released in both the Transport linked and Stand Alone modes

So, in use you drop in the song, decide on the pre scroll pause time & enter it, set the inter song pause duration if any are used, calculate the scrolling time & enter it as the scroll speed setting, save your settings and check with the transport to make sure it all times right for you

The easiest way to start off on the right foot is to unzip the contents of the .zip file to the C♪3 Racks folder location you use and it’s ready to go. It’s contents include a PDF manual as shown here.

In the Tools>Options>Miscellaneous>Advanced area make sure ‘Show Loopback Ports’ are checked!

7AFD.tmpk

The following video is my first Talkie and details setting it up. The Pdf manual is also available for reference.

SCROLL DELUXE .zip|attachment (246.6 KB)

Enjoy and Cheers!

Dave

Corky · March 14, 2021, 5:13pm

Dave, you did a great job. Your 1st outing into instruction is very fine. Looking forward to future instructions from you. A video is always so much easier to learn from.

Cheers

Corky

dave_dore · March 14, 2021, 5:21pm

I have a few more to come but they will be thankfully much shorter, stay tuned as they say! I watched @brad and @terrybritton videos and tried to learn about it that way. I’m a total newbie that only puts a mic in front of his mouth to sing … Thanks for the reassuring words @Corky!

Dave

Corky · March 14, 2021, 5:36pm

Since I work mostly with live bands (no backing tracks or click tracks) scrolling would be difficult at best. No drummer alive is a pure metronome . AND no guitarist starting a song is tempo aware. Since the scene has changed, I may need to use some click tracks, or backing tracks, so this will come in handy. Until then, I will stay with my state change lyrics and notes because 90 bpm can unfortunately become 120 bpm within 12 measures. Great work you did on this. Really love your custom buttons…very useful. I wasn’t aware of them until Terry brought it up in one of his webinars.

SteveK · March 14, 2021, 5:44pm

As Dave already knows, seeing it in action in a video is super helpful. Corky, no need to worry about a drummer who isn’t Charlie Watts. The rack can be use stand alone, especially helpful for people who are using as a teleprompter for a podcast, and you can control it manually with a footswitch. One of the things I had mentioned to Dave was that since I use tracks, the environment is more rigid, but for people who get involved in an extended solo or a mid song jam, it can just be left there hanging out, waiting to be started up again. I can’t trust my memory anymore for the lyrics and since I have those, adding the chords, makes them the perfect companions. Too many CDG, GDC, GCD chord progressions is starting to tax the old noggin, so it just makes it one less thing to worry about

Corky · March 14, 2021, 5:56pm

Yeah, lyrics have been a terrible crutch for me. I can’t remember hundreds of songs, so I am dependant on a prompter. Funny though, I usually remember song structures and chords to everything. I’ve tried scrolling lyrics in the past, and I honestly have a hard time worrying about them while singing and playing. It took me forever to get used to hitting a switch to change the lyric page, much less using sustain pedal, Leslie toggle, volume pedal, and both hands busy. I need 3 more arms…pentaped!

SteveK · March 14, 2021, 6:09pm

I hear ya. I use the Ron Popiel method most of the time (set it and forget it), but there are times when pausing and using the fast forward can be helpful. I have multiple pedals as well, and play standing up, so it is a challenge to be sure. You’ve gotta do what works for you, and sometimes making a switch can be tough once you get a system down. Dave has put together a great rack and despite his claims to the contrary, I would be willing to bet that an adjustment or two will be added in his quest for perfection. If he could only figure out how it could use a CC to trigger my coffee maker, than he would really have something Seriously though, anybody who has thought about the idea of your notes/lyrics scrolling in time with your transport, this is the rack for you. It is great to be able to see a particular change that needs to be made (state change, etc) as a reminder. Since I am doing a lot like you Corky as well as running sound from the stage, anything that can ease this aging brain of mine, I’ll take it. It seems that every time I learn something new, something I already know falls out the back. This is like Prevagen for your songs, at least it is for me. It’s just another of Dave’s super solid pieces of work.

Corky · March 14, 2021, 6:45pm

Dave is amazing…no dispute about that! He has pulled up some fantastic things, and he has helped me many times!

dave_dore · March 14, 2021, 7:15pm

I hear that, We are hybrid in my groups. I have the C♪3 Metronome flash 4 bars so I can get my feel on it by slapping my thighs a bit. Then I start the intros and the perc and rhythm guitarists take over because as you say with out the click it just goes where it does by some amount.

I like the choo-choo train …

I am digging those too!

that was a good addition to be sure!

I use one screen photos right now but my work with Steve on the several show note scroller racks I concocted and that are a big part of his approach have me reconsidering a lot of things about my way of doing things.

I have to sit down and use a 4 pedal rig to boot, I know a guitarist who says he loves to watch the keyboardist’s pedal footwork in live groups with no net so to speak.

Cantabile to the RESCUE!!!

Thanks for chiming in guys, it is appreciated …

In an addendum I thought I’d mention that @Torsten pointed to the next possible phase for scrolling notes in C♪3 just the other day and a model that would more tightly tie the main transport time line to the Show Notes scroll position value so I have a feeling that it will be a possible thing to come. Sorta like a new Cantabile style of Karaoke programming for live use in a user friendly package. That would be the Dave dream package from the autumn mist …

Corky · March 14, 2021, 7:28pm

Hamboning or eephing ?

dave_dore · March 14, 2021, 7:38pm

I refer to it as Ringoing …

Corky · March 14, 2021, 7:42pm

Lol…can’t get better than that.

Torsten · March 14, 2021, 10:39pm

@dave_dore - amazing job - as usual from our resident wizard!

Yup - that was my reason for building LivePrompter - all other apps required too much operating focus while I’m busy doing the actual playing (and also singing in my case).

The two things that made scrolling lyrics work for me:

moving away from the “average scrolling speed approach” that most lyric-sheet apps use - songs just don’t always progress at the same scrolling speed (the 3 minute guitar solo that is just two lines of chords). Once I had a more fine-grained timing (LP allows to set specific song times at various points in your lyrics, e.g. to reach the guitar solo at 2:40 and chorus 3 at exactly 3:37 play time), things became a lot better, with the right portion of the song being on-screen when I need it. Makes a world of difference - now using lyrics on-screen is really set-it-and-forget-it. I press “play” during count-in and then simply let the song scroll by, and - unless our drummer has a bad day (see below) - the relevant portion of the song is usually on-screen at all times.
having two simple buttons “up” and “down”, each of which move the screen display by one-third of the display height. This helps correct the position with one easy smash of a button whenever our drummer gets excited or lazy - definitely good enough for the typical tempo bandwidth of live use and easy to operate in live action

On the first, I don’t think this is feasible in @dave_dore’s magic rack, but the second should be - I think it would be convenient for live use to have a CC that will forward (or rewind) scrolling by a fixed amount in addition to the CC6 method that fast-forwards while pressed. The “while pressed” method will need staring at the display so you know when to release the button, whereas - to me - having nice and friendly buttons that you can just hit-and-forget in the heat of the battle is more useful in live situations. So maybe just one more option to add to the “SCROLL DELUXE”, @dave_dore?

Playing live, I usually get by nicely with “play/pause”, “up” and “down” on big fat buttons during a song, and “previous”, “next” and “reset to start” on smaller buttons when not playing.

Just sharing some of my learnings from a couple of years of using scrolling lyrics on tablets on-stage now - I wouldn’t ever go back to printed sheets on music stands. File folders just aren’t rock-n-roll…

Torsten · March 14, 2021, 10:48pm

It all depends on @brad - if we can get a “playback percentage” binding source, a lot more is possible. Doesn’t solve the “varying scrolling speed” problem within Cantabile, though - for that, you’d need a more detailed “scroll speed map” to map a playback percentage to the best scroll position in the lyrics. In LivePrompter, I use hidden “time” tags in the lyrics to calculate this scroll speed map, but that’s probably beyond what can be done in a Cantabile rack.

But if anyone can do it, it will be @dave_dore

dave_dore · March 14, 2021, 11:15pm

True, it is not able the first way and is more average speed as in older apps. The method you devised sounds like a winner to me with the variable scroll speeds handled by marker placement …

Believe me I wanted to have that and it’s not a never, but is a request on Trello for some mods to the bindings on a few fronts. Brad is in the loop on my requests in this regard …

I think that is true, My note binder has been open only a handful of times in the past 4 years, it’s all digital now for me …

Agreed, it is why you get the better action in the LP app

I’d probably try just to see but in reality my C3 file folder is like a film cutters floor and up to my knees in experiments that went poof. I’m betting that Brad will have the next ‘part in the dance’ (a Cajun saying) of the scrolls …

Thanks for the wonderful comments Torsten!

Dave

Torsten · March 14, 2021, 11:32pm

I’ve found it super-powerful when using the “custom comments” and “custom pictures” feature in LivePrompter, where everyone in the band use the same source files (shared via dropbox) but individual players see different things. I love having some portion of my keyboard parts in full notation - of course this isn’t really useful to the guitarist. So I will see this:

And our guitarist will see this:

So scrolling at different speeds is a definite “must” for these kinds of things to work. I simply tell LP that Intro 2 starts at 18 seconds and Verse 1 at 35, and both the guitarist and I will see what we need to see at that time.
You’ll notice that I’m also using the “custom transpose” feature - too lazy to play B-flat minor, so I simply transpose my rig in Cantabile and play the song in Am

Cheers,

Torsten

Corky · March 15, 2021, 1:55am

Hey Torsten

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to scroll, and if I ever get an opportunity using a backing track, I am sure I would sync everything. The problem is, as you well know, when playing everything live, tempos vary, and yes, the guitar hero solos last forever on some songs. In your example, you are still dependant on time selections. I am more focused on verse, chorus, bridge, etc. I change lyric pages with states. Like Steve K, I also run the sound from the stage on some gigs. I am also engaged visually with my bandmates and the patrons. That is why when scrolling, I can’t lose place. It will impede my performance and probably wreck the song.

I am envious of you guys being able to perform the way you do, but I live in one of the biggest live performance areas in the world. The vast array of musicians here are old school players, even the younger ones. I am, without doubt, the one of the few musicians here with a computer on stage. Believe me, I have been shamed many times by closed minded people. While others scramble through lyric sheets, I sit back ready to go. To this day, I still cannot convince anyone to use in-ears, or use a tablet for lyrics. It has been an uphill battle for sure.

You and @dave_dore are giving a great service to the community, and I applaud both your great efforts.

Robb_Fesig · March 15, 2021, 3:48pm

Can’t you use the “Transport/On Position” binding to automatically move on a certain percentage of the song?

dave_dore · March 15, 2021, 3:57pm

Hi Robb,

As far as I know you can’t. It acts as an indicator only and not as a source to use for this or other possible purposes. @Torsten made mention of the idea that since it is there as an indicator as you point out that it could it be used for that purpose. I wish it did as it would allow more rack fun here but not at this time, it would require some changes to Cantabile itself.

Cheers,

Dave

Torsten · March 15, 2021, 4:17pm

No, the “On Position bindings” can’t be used to jump by a relative amount; positions need to be set as absolute times.

Binding Types

Currently there are six types of transport position bindings:

Position - fires when transport crosses a specified position, or is stopped at the specified position.

Cross Position - similar to above but only fires when transport is playing.

Section - fires when transpost position is greater than the specified position, but before the next section binding.
`* Is After Position - evaluates to true if the transport position is after the specified position, false otherwise.

Is Before Position - opposite of the above.

Is In Range - evaluates to true if the transport position is within a specified start/end range

To clarify the difference between Position and Cross Position… if the transport is stopped at the bound position, the first kind will trigger immediately where as the second one will only fire once the transport has started playing from that position.

You could create a bit of a crutch: create “cross position” bindings at regular intervals (5 seconds or so) that will send a CC6=0 command to Dave’s scroll rack (I assume that the scroll position is controlled by the play position of master transport, correct?). That way, any time you send cc6=127, fast scrolling would start, and it would automatically end when crossing the next pre-set position.

But to make real sense, you’d have to create an awful lot of “cross position” bindings - not sure if that would affect performance.

Cheers,

Torsten