How many computers on stage?

Cantabile
1

I’m forming an electronic dance band that is exclusively using VSTs in Cantabile .

The musicians/instruments are:

  • keyboard player - 2 MIDI controller keyboards playing VSTs
  • Synth bass player - playing synth bass VST via a keytar!
  • Electronic drummer - drum pads into Native Instruments Battery VST
  • 3 singers - that would benefit from song specific delay and reverb settings
  • Backing track - playing in Cantabile Media player
  • A tempo track into all the musicians monitors
  • Tempo sync’d lighting (eventually) - no idea how to do this right now

For live performance is it best to:

  1. Have one PC with USB MIDI cables from all the instruments, and singing going through VST delay/reverbs in a single Cantabile instance?

  2. Have a PC & Cantabile instance per band member, and synchronise them together somehow (if so how?)

  3. Some combination of the above?

Any best practice tips for a setup like this?

2

Hi,

There is no one answer, as it will depend on the power of your computer(s) and how much you are trying to do with it (them).

With a single computer you also have the risk of all of your eggs being in the same basket, so to speak if it, goes wrong. So I would plan for a couple. Maybe one for keys and one for bass/drums/simple vocal effects (should be a lighter load)

You can always start with one and check the audio cycle load with the likely VSTs you are going to be using. I try and keep load to about 50% but some of my songs push higher than that up to 60/70% and it has been OK so far…

If you need to go multiple computers it is relatively easy to set up a small network and run RtPMIDI over that so they can exchange MIDI data to keep them in sync.

Backing tracks and tempo tracks are easy, as is Tempo Synced lighting. See my DMXIS Cantabile Guide, which also shows how I setup my backing tracks along with the lighting cue. I am currently developing a more improvised show based on a looping sequencer inside Cantabile, and now working out how to do DMX lighting under this type of show.

I also have guides on how to setup a gig rack and Cantabile, in addition to Brad’s excellent guides, which you can all find on the Cantabile Support Page.

HTH as an overview, and feel free to ask more questions as you get into the detail.

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3

I’ve read about rtpMIDI from users on the forum and can see how that might be an elegant technology for your situation. But if i were building such a thing myself, i’d just go old school with 5-pin MIDI. Have one computer (the one handling backing tracks and such) as the Master, and send program changes, tempo, etc to the other computers as MIDI commands.

There’s so many ways to implement things in Cantabile, so this is just one old codger’s suggestion. :slightly_smiling_face:

– Jimbo

4

Hi Pete -

Interesting project … I love ambitious projects, and Cantabile has seen me through a lot of complex situations over the last three years …

I have found it very helpful when managing a complex setup to have external MIDI controller just for controlling levels. I use an Faderfox EC4 to control multiple channels in Cantabile for the various instruments, backing track and external feeds, and FX & Pan levels. This is a custom setup with the EC4 affecting route gain settings in a core linked rack (the [Rig] rack) that is included in every Cantabile song.

I actually include one Battery 4 (B4) instance in the [Rig] rack so I can always have access to percussion (which I fire from a Akai MPD-218). However … to reduce potential resource issues, the kit I use is rather sparse on velocity layers. In a “serious” B4 instance, I would include maybe 16 velocity layers for things like Kick, but that can really take a lot of space.

I actually use an MP3 app outside of Cantabile for backing tracks. I route it separately through ADAT channels in my RME interface so that a backing track can play across changes in Cantabile song files. The level on the backing track app is controlled from the EC4 by a software MIDI link.

I also use the EC4 to manage settings in my RME interface. I have found that reaching down to click … click … twist … twist … on a separate unit is not as smooth and convenient as having the knob on the EC4, integrated with all the other level-setting knobs.

One realization for me (a loooong time ago) was that I did not want to be constrained by “songs” per se … I use my Cantabile set list as a basket of instruments that I can freely select, even in the middle of a “song” we are playing. This approach has driven some of my other decisions (such as moving the backing track play out of Cantabile).

One key element has been Bome MIDI Translator, which effectively handles all most MIDI routing. I still route my “playing” controllers (my Sylphyo wind synth) directly into Cantabile to minimize latency.

I have also recently begun using a second DAW - Ableton Live - to do looping. I am trying to eliminate the need for an RC-505 on the road. Looping is kind of key for me when doing solo shows, and so far this TwoDaw setup is working well (did a first show in this configuration a week ago).

Can be tricky, and you have to experiment. I have run into issues with MIDI Clock signals that are sent through any ASIO layer. The MIDI messages (I have learned) ride along with the audio buffer and pick up a small amount of jitter. This is not too much of an issue (with a small buffer size) for notes you are playing. But for MIDI clock signals, the jitter can confuse a unit that is receiving those clock signals.

When synching two RC-505 units between band members, a hardware link between the two loopers worked just fine. However, if we routed the source signal through an ASIO-based DAW and then back out to the target looper, the target looper sensed a fluctuating tempo and wound up trying to adjust all the looped material to the “new” tempo. This took a week to diagnose … Ugh.

However, for more “gross level” actions such as song changes, I think synchronizing using MIDI commands would be no problem …

I hope this helps!

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5

@JimboKeys Sure, going 5 pin DIN is also a good way of doing it, but it means you need a MIDI interface on all computers. Going Ethernet required a single CAT5E cable and RtPMIDI.

Having said that, if you are only going to be needing to use lightweight MIDI commands (Notes, Program Changes, Realtime) then a good quality “USB MIDI Lead” (e.g. M-AUDIO UNO) would also do the the trick (not the cheap $10 ones, which i have never seen working well). But that requires the MIDI Interfaces, the MIDI leads (i.e. more to go wrong compared to a single CAT5 cable)

Plenty of choices for sure.

I would recommend looking into RtPMIDI. It’s how I have my DAWPC, GIGPC and VIDEOPC connected up when they are all in the studio, and then how my GIGPC and VIDEOPC communicate on stage.

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6

I’m currently doing the same thing now. I’ve been automating groups since the late 80’s. Checkout LiveTraker. A must have in band automation. In my opinion.

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I have been using rtpMIDI for about 2.5 years now, and if not loaded heavily (< 20 active MIDI channels) it’s very reliable. The one advantage that rtpMIDI – and for that matter, USB MIDI – has is that it has more headroom than 5-pin MIDI. If you heavily load a 5-pin channel with data, it is possible to ‘overfill the pipe’ occasionally, and you may find these brief bursts of activity lead to dropped data and stuck notes. The problem is kind of analogous to CPU Load vs. Time Load in Cantabile: CPU Load represents the steady CPU use, but Time Load is also important because it shows the maximum bandwidth that might be needed for a short burst. It depends on the keyboards and VSTs in the system, and the presence/absence of things like aftertouch data, but I was having a lot of trouble soloing on my Nord Stage 3 while other tracks were playing using 5-pin MIDI; it all went away by changing to USB, and has stayed away with rtpMIDI.

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