Fishman Triple Play Routing in Cantabile


#1

I’m testing out a Triple Play with Cantabile and all was working well until I pre-loaded the set in performer. If anyone is already running a Triple Play, a description of the Cantabile Routing would be helpful.

At this time, I have the Triple Play as a MIDI input port, then “drag a routing line” to the Triple Play Plugin at the Top (midi in). In the Triple Play Plugin, the various VSTi are loaded, then the Stereo out is directed to the main audio output. No problem at all controlling sounds.

If anyone is not familiar with a Triple Play, it has the ability to send individual MIDI channels 1-6 to the soft synths, so the high e-string (midi channel 1) could run Kontakt samples, the b-string (midi channel 2) could run East-West Violin, etc. OR, all the guitar strings will be on MIDI channel 1 to play polyphonic sounds on a Kontakt Piano for example. Different songs require different modes: The POLY mode or the MONO mode.

Here is the issue. When the sets are Pre-loaded, the Fishman becomes stuck in the MIDI Mode at the time of the Pre-load. If the set is not Pre-loaded, the Fishman swaps modes perfectly (but it takes a lot of time to load each song). Pre-loading the set makes the system non-workable.

My first thought is why do I have to route the Fishman MIDI input back to the Fishman Plugin on the Cantabile Routing page? It seems like the Fishman should receive it’s own MIDI without going through Cantabile. The Fishman is showing each string as plucked, but no MIDI gets to the VSTi until the Fishman MIDI IN is routed to the Fishman.

Maybe I’m the problem and someone has a better way to MIDI route? Also, maybe Fishman and Cantabile don’t play well together in Pre-load and I just need to not Pre-load. I’ll keep tweaking and any suggestions would be appreciated!

I’m starting to think that the the triple play should only be a MIDI device and route directly to the individual VSTi and not use the triple ply as a VSTi shell.


#2

As I am tweaking, I noticed that when a different song is loaded, the Fishman plugin states “Used in another Track” with a hot button titled “USE HERE.” If USE HERE is activated, the problems go away. Maybe issue is not being stuck in POLY or MONO midi mode when pre-loaded, but the Fishman being pre-loaded in every song and not being released? Once the fishman is “USE HERE” the mode changes as expected.

I’m searching for “Fishman ‘used in another rack’” and nothing is on the web.


#3

Hi

I use FTP exclusively for MIDI control of VSTs and do NOT use the shell. I simply use it as a MIDI input device. This set up works fine. Its the same as using a MIDI keyboard controller except of course it’s a guitar :blush:


#4

Thanks. That makes sense. I’ll leave the FTP in POLY mode all the time and combine string MIDI channels as/if needed with the Cantabile MIDI filters before routing to VST. The only problem might be FTP states “all our provided plugins are optimized for FTP” so I hope they behave as well outside of the FTP shell as inside.


#5

Fortunately, I Don’t use any of the vsts packaged with FTP so that’s not a concern for me. I also don’t use any of the keyboard splits or individual string routing. If I did, I may have had to look more closely at using FTP as a VST. So I’m happy with it as a simple guitar MIDI controller.


#6

Hi I’ve been using FTP with Line6 Variax for a long time and started using Cantabile recently since they introduced diagrams. It works fine with the Midi input device to the FTP Vst. The only problem I was having was with the Time Load but recent updates seem to have improved this. Not sure what the Poly/Mono problem is as FTP usually looks after that.


#7

I set up one of the included Fishman VST as a stand-alone VST and routed the FTP midi out to the VST midi in and there are sounds so the routing works. The first Cantabile test load had the FTP MIDI from FTP as poly (that means all strings are on channel 1). I shutdown Cantabile, started FTP alone, and changed to Mono (High E = Midi channel 1, B = Channel 2, etc). That FTP setup was working when Cantabile was restarted. So, each guitar string has a separate midi channel (1-6). Hopefully, after a reboot that FTP status will remains as last-load.

Bigger issue is lots of “midi-misfires” (maybe my sloppy playing!) such as additional notes or differences that were not there with using the FTP VST Shell. I started digging around with the Cantabile Midi Monitor and there is another channel (Midi 8) that is also sending controllers 29, 30, 31, 61, 63, 29 (fine) and 31 (fine). Not sure what that is, but it must be additional information sent to the Triple play program to catch/incorporate guitar nuances? From what I can tell, Midi CH8 controllers pass which string was plucked and individual string bends. What FTP does with info, I have no idea.

I’ll keep playing because maybe I’m missing something, but this loss of the midi channel 8 from the FTP pickup concerns me. Once again, issue with FTP and Cantabile is only when pre-loading a set list. FTP shell appears to be only pre-loadable in the first song loaded and will not release for another song without manual intervention. When not pre-loading, there is no “FTP sticking.” Worst case is I don’t pre-load and move on with making music…


#8

Fishman Support has not responded to my request/question, so the best I can come up with is the Fishman VST shell/rack can only have a single active instance. Having a single instance appears to cause a conflict when pre-loading sets as each Fishman instance has to be manually activated even when pre-loaded. The solutions so far are 1) do not use the Fishman shell when pre-loading, or 2) use the Fishman shell and do not pre-load.


#9

Hey @easteelreath. Do you have the Fishman VST in a Rack? That’s important to the way Set List pre-load works. I think otherwise, if you put it directly in at the Song level, C3 will attempt to instantiate multiple copies (making your copy protection upset and grumpy).


#10

I am loading one instance of Fishman Triple Play (FTP) per song in the Set List and there can evidently only be one active instance of FTP running at a time. Right now, I’m working on a “Linked Rack” to hold one instance of FTP and use that rack for all songs, but am unsure of how to load the different VSTi’s provided with FTP into the FTP shell for each song. We shall see as I’m just starting that effort.

I don’t think the issue is a copy protection issue; I think FTP is programmed to have only one operating/active VST instance. If the stand alone FTP is running and C3 is then started, a splash window appears which states “TriplePlay in Use…Another instance of TriplePlay is already in use.” Same window if C3 is running and the standalone FTP is started.

When the Set List is pre-loaded with a FTP per song and a song is changed, the desired instance of FTP states “Used in Another Track” and shows a hot button titled “USE HERE.” If the “USE HERE” is pressed, then all is well. But that defeats the purpose of pre-load…


#11

Yes. You need to have the VSTs in a Linked Rack for pre-load to work. You may have to fiddle with how the VSTs go in or break it into more than one Rack. But you need to use Linked Racks. The Rack(s) and all the VSTs contained will be treated as a single instance of FTP.


#12

I just set up a linked rack for one FTP sound and another linked rack for another FTP sound. The first FTP rack is a sound where the MIDI output is POLY and the second FTP rack is a sound where the MIDI output is MONO. Once again, all is well until the set is pre-loaded and FTP exhibits the same behavior: I’m already using an instance and I’m not going to load another instance until someone manually intervenes!

@rackedbrain, how does one change the sound(s) within the TFP VST in a single linked rack if there can only be one (“Highlander” movie)? This racked concepts seems to be the same thing as before but just more levels (like the “Inception” movie!). I’m on a Movie kick, I guess!


#13

Rack States. Use Rack States as if the Rack was an old hardware Synth and the Rack State is the patch. Review the Guides Brad has. I think there may be some videos. But one uses Rack States to set up a collection of patches within the Rack to make one Sound (patch). At the Song level, they you select the Rack State and it will manage the inner plumbing of the Rack.

If you have two separate Racks with the same VST, then you have two instantiations of the VST. FTP will only let you have one instantiation running. If the FTP kit has multiple VSTs, then you may consider breaking those into Racks. For now, get everything into one Rack and use Rack States to select your sounds.


#14

See this Guide
https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/guides/states


#15

@rackedbrain, first thanks for your help. I can create a linked FTP rack, then have a state within that rack for sound 1 (FTP is mono) and another state for sound 2 (FTP is Poly). I can switch between the states for this linked rack with the mouse. This also works pre-loaded (but doesn’t save any time?). I cannot seem to bind these states for this linked rack to any MIDI input (program change from a midi foot pedal). Plus, when the states are changed (even with pre-loading) the sounds have to load (I can see the progress indicator moving to the right). Very frustrating. Plus Cantabile has crashed two times and “blacklisted” kontakt. States within songs and states within racks and states within linked racks is very humbling/confusing. I’m going to have a glass of wine, sleep on it, then try it again on a fresh day. If that doesn’t get it, I’ll just punt the pre-load and wait for each song to load. All was working at that point. I’m also thinking that switching states within a linked rack will not allow any additions of other plugins (chorus, reverb, etc.) as needed for a particular song.

It was very simple to bind each song in the set list to a midi program change, load FTP and all the other plugins (phase, chorus, reverb, etc.) for that particular song, then play. These racks and states are mind boggling.


#16

Fishman returned my support question and confirmed that only one active instance of FTP is allowed. After feedback from this forum, Brad (that Brad), and Fishman, the linked rack would be the only way to have one instance of FTP, but… how to change from MONO to MIDI modes?

There may be more, but this appears to be a viable solution to run FTP in Cantabile:

  1. Create “Linked Rack” in Cantabile that contains the FTP. This will be the only active instance of FTP on computer. The FTP instance will be set up as a “Hardware Synth Plugin” in MONO with pitchbend in AUTO (seems to give best results). Every string has a dedicated midi out channel. “Hardware synth” is key point. This will never change. If the the FTP is not set up in Hardware Synth/mono, it appears to revert to last loaded state which may not be MONO.

  2. This FTP Linked Rack serves no purpose other than to control FTP upon loading. It has no viable inputs or outputs. Output routings may be visible, but they do nothing and can/could be deleted.

  3. Load a VSTi and route the FTP midi to this VSTi. The FTP will have a midi out on the left hand side of the Cantabile window. That MIDI will now send notes/etc. to the VSTi.

  4. Route the VSTi to any VST (effect), then VST (effect) to the Cantabile stereo out

  5. If MONO mode (each guitar string has a midi channel) is to be maintained, do nothing. One could have multiple VSTi, each accepting a particular channel from the FTP.

  6. If POLY mode (entire fretboard is one channel) is needed, insert a Cantabile MIDI filter which routes channels 1-6 to channel 1. This filter is VSTi specific, not the linked rack that contains FTP.

I’ve tried two songs, one with MONO and one with POLY, and pre-loading set list works. This method is punting the internal FTP midi routing and keeping the FTP mono (all 6 channels), then midi routing in Cantabile (much more powerful filters, too). The FTP fretboard splits can be easily duplicated with the Cantabile filters. In fact, the Cantabile filters can offer even more possibilities for routing particular strings with fret boundaries to manage many more synths. FTP can only load four synths; with Cantabile, more can be added (I assume) until computer hardware limitation cause audio problems.