I load existing racks into a song project, and then adjust some things like levels of the various VSTi’s (in the VST edit windows, then I close the rack back out to the song) , then I save the song (I don’t necessarily save the rack) …will the newly created song vst instrument volume settings over-ride the individual rack settings when the song is re-loaded?
Read up on state behavior. You can control whether the rack state or the song state controls.
yeah, that’s what I thought but I did a search prior to the post and nothing in the headers indicated it…I’ll check the states guide again. haha probs just put in the wrong search term
normally, a rack controls its own settings, so, when you edit a rack within a song, you need to save the rack, otherwise the changes will simply get lost (unless we are talking embedded racks, of course).
I believe that Cantabile automatically saves changed racks when saving the song (depends on the setting “prompt to save” which you’ll find in “File->Rack Options” (only visible when the rack is open for editing). In this dialog, you can set Cantabile to “prompt only on significant changes” - this way, it will ignore changes you made via controllers etc.
So, normally, when you make changes in your rack (modify a vst instruments’ settings), they will get saved with the rack, not with the song.
BUT (that’s what @RackedBrain mentioned): you can explicitly make individual parameters controllable by the hosting song. To do this, take a look at the state behavior tab: inside a rack, there are always TWO tick boxes. When you tick the LEFT one, the respective parameter will be controlled by the song and its song states, not by the rack states (or at least the song states will override the rack state ones). When you now change this parameter within the rack, the values will be stored with the SONG.
A good use case for this is a master FX rack with reverbs, delays etc in one rack. Now you set the selected preset for each of these to be controlled by the song. You could even go down to effect parameters like delay time or feedback. Now you can define individual effect settings for every song.
Thanks Torsten - that was what I was after I think. For some reason the forum search did not show any previous discussion on it.
I think it was Brad’s blog that had a really good article on it. “State Behavior” is what you want. In the article I’m thinking of, he talks about how the song can control everything in the rack to the point you don’t really need Rack states. I set off to do that originally, but if you want to look at the song and see what sounds/patches you use, you have to open the individual Racks–too fiddly. I like Rack states because you can see the sounds configured when you look down the Routes view. The downside is, you have to create a Rack state for every combination of sounds within the Rack you want to use. Since I use Kontakt, that could be a pain. I decided I would just create new Rack states as needed, but not try to envision every single combination in advance. Seems to be working. That and @Torsten’s ideas about using FreeG to control levels within a rack with external MIDI controls and faders.
Torsten, you mention “TWO tick boxes” and then LEFT one? I only see tick boxes in line not side by side…and do I look at the STATE BEHAVIOUR tab in song view or inside the rack view?
I really want the song settings to over-ride whatever is in the rack…
You look at the state behavior tab inside the rack view - now you should have two tick boxes side by side
Thanks - okay I found that, then I untick the one that says gain level, save the rack and when I reload the song, the level of the VST is still not what I set in the song?
I checked the rack and the Gain Level is still unticked, so that was saved. I’m obviously still doing something wrong, but I cannot see it haha!
OK, here you go,
- you need to TICK the left Gain Level box within the rack - this means that you control the Gain Level via song states in your song. If everything is un-ticked, this means that the song has no influence on your Gain Level
- now save your rack
- open your song with the rack in it
- enter the rack editor and set Gain Level to taste
- go back to the song level and update the current state - the Gain Level information should now be saved with your current song state and recalled when you call up this song state
IMPORTANT: this “inherited” info is NOT stored globally with the song, but within a song STATE - you need to work with song states to make this work…
So you DO have to update a rack then re-save the rack…I was looking for a solution that did not involve having to open racks at all. I just want to load a rack, basically as a sound preset only…all the control of that sound I want to have at the song level. So if I adjust a volume (via an external hardware control, for eg) then save the song with ctrl-s (whcih by the way does not work!!) then that’s how it will load the next time the song is loaded.
Nope, no need to save the rack - when the “inherit” flag is set, the value is saved within the SONG, not the rack. But you’re right - you need to edit the parameter within the rack. And you definitely need to save the parameter via a song state, not simply at song level. This is just how @brad implemented this feature - it’s part of state behavior.
As things currently are, editing within the rack is the only practicall way to implement this; you might want to control many parameters in various racks from the song - no other consistent way to edit them than to open the respective rack and adjust them, unless @brad created a new page at song level that allows you to set all the “inherited” parameters. Not everybody sets their parameters via MIDI bindings…
And if you do set parameters via bindings and MIDI control of your racks, you currently have a way, although it is a bit “manual”: simply create a “song load” trigger that sends your desired volume to the rack. To modify your rack gain, you simply change the value of this trigger at song level. All done!
But maybe there will be a way in the re-design of bindings that @brad is currently working on: I could imagine an option with the “new” bindings that says “save level with song”, automatically storing the last value and recalling it on song load. Let’s see what @brad comes up with
Thanks Torsten - it sort of confirms my thoughts that racks are way overkill for my needs. I think I will revert to the “simple” setup oif just creating songs and just inserting the relevant vst’s for the song. At least then I know that time spent in setting up mixes etc in the studio will equate to a no issues run at a gig.
One suggestion: if it’s only volumes you want to set at song level, why not use the rack volume sliders (at the song level) to achieve this? Then you can leave the racks pretty static (which is what they do best - treat them as preset boxes) and fine-tune your song-specific levels with the rack volume sliders.
This requires you to be pretty fine-grained with your racks - I currently have some 10-12 racks (piano rack, epiano rack, string layer rack, organ rack, main synth rack, solo synth rack, …) and for every song, I simply load the ones that I need for it and set their levels at song level.
Then I use my MIDI controllers only for dynamic changes within the song - this I actually do INDEPENDENTLY of the levels set at song level by sending volume commands to the racks.
- Piano layer at 0 dB - no further adjustment (it’s a piano song)
- String layer volume set at -15 dB at song level: this is what I set as the mix level that sounds good to me when strings are at full volume; they blend in nicely with the piano
- When I want to fade the strings out or reduce their volume, I use a MIDI controller that sends CC7 to the rack, which again affects either a volume plugin or a gain slider somewhere in the rack. With this, I control string volume between silence and the -15 dB set at song level
- I have set all my racks to NOT automatically save these dynamic changes; also, at the beginning of every song, I send an initializing CC7 to all racks to make sure that their levels are not affected by a previous song
So, in a nutshell:
- STATIC mixing (setting base level): using rack gain sliders at song level
- DYNAMIC mixing (adjusting the static mix on-the-fly during the gig): using MIDI controllers, sending volume commands to racks (that aren’t saved)
Thanks Torsten - yeah that would work for me too I think.