Contemplating on taking the plunge

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Hello everyone!

I wanted to introduce myself as a fellow keyboardist and am looking for advice.
I currently use a Kurzweil PC3x and an Access Virus TI Desktop along with an Alesis Vortex Wireless all networked with an iConnectivity iConnectMidi4+.

My setup times are far from ideal, stuff is all over the place and along the years the Kurzweil has had some issues that have not been fixed by a few visits to the repair shop.

Past years it has seemed that keyboardists have been abandoned since nothing interesting and new has popped up in the workstation synthesizer category. Kurzweil is re-warming the PC3 over and over again, Korg little more than renaming the Kronos and Roland and Yamaha have both succumbed to releasing what can only be described as toys.

I downloaded Cantabile free some time ago to test the UI and how it would suit my needs and it does seem pretty great. This got me thinking of letting the Kurzweil and Virus stay at home for quick studio use and building a PC for the stage.

My idea is this, without a too specific parts list:

  • Rack mount PC, 3U case
  • i5 6500 cpu, mATX MB, 16GB RAM (for starters), Samsung SSD for plugins and an M.2 SSD for Win10 and Cantabile
  • A small display, preferably touch enabled and USB powered to keep on the corner of the midi controller
  • RME ADAT PCI-card (low latency and stable), Behringer ADA8200 for outputs (good audio quality and easily upgraded later)
  • Rack mount UPS with pure sine wave output (i.e. not stepped approx.)
  • 6U case for PC, UPS, converter, IEM transmitter, iConnectivity midirouter, back side covered w/ panels, with a connections panel for power and XLR outs, 4U perforated panel with 3x 140mm temperature controlled Noctua PWM fans to cool the whole rack (leave the rack pc fanless)
  • Simple MIDI controller, something like the Studiologic SL88 and enough pedals to let me change sounds without using my hands

Sound wise I need a pretty wide palette of sounds, from acoustic piano, Rhodes and strings to a multitude of electronic sounds (mainly for progressive rock/metal). Ivory, Lounge Lizard, NI Komplete and perhaps Omnisphere would probably have me covered for a pretty long time. Wouldnā€™t you agree?

All this would allow me to accomplish a few things:

  1. Setup easy enough for anyone to set if Iā€™m otherwise occupied
  2. In need of new sounds a simple ā€˜buy the pluginā€™ is enough, adding something entirely new to my current setup is pretty difficult
  3. I understand every part of my configuration and if something fails it is simple to replace

Also in the future Iā€™d love to get a Seaboard RISE and using one of those with the Virus TI can prove challenging so Iā€™d help myself in that, too :slight_smile:

Iā€™ve read countless of threads and it seems like Cantabile is certainly stable enough for live use. Iā€™d still appreciate it if anyone has any comments on what Iā€™m planning to do. Like if Iā€™m doing something thatā€™s obviously going to bite me in the ass Iā€™d gladly skip it.

Thanks a bunch, youā€™ve earned a medal just by reading this allā€¦

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Do it, you wonā€™t regret it!!! I was in a similar position to you, 3-4 years ago (also with a PC3x), and honestly I havenā€™t looked back. So much more flexibility in terms of availability of superb quality sounds (better than any workstation), and in terms of the incredible versatility and power of Cantabile for routing, switching, control etc.

Your plans sound very sensible, and youā€™ll end up with a killer setup. My only suggestion would be to test small displays carefully, in gig-like situations, in terms of being big enough to see clearly enough, and in terms of effects of lighting etc. Also think carefully about contingency plans in case you have a problem. I donā€™t know how big-profile your gigs are, but I like to have a spare backup of most of my gear, including the main PC (and PC3x actually). But at the very minimum, make sure you have a good backup strategy, or sync everything with Dropbox or whatever.

Regarding having enough pedals to control stuff, you might like to consider the MIDI Expression Quattro, which gives you 4 multi-purpose pedal inputs. It would allow you to have a wider choice of controller keyboard, if you didnā€™t have to worry about pedal inputs. I have 3 of these, and they work really well.

NI Komplete sounds like a good choice. You might also want to consider Ivory II if you use acoustic piano a lot (the ones in Komplete are great, but Ivory is better IMHO).

Neil

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Thanks for the pointers!
For the display I currently have a 15.6" USB-connected Asus widescreen monitor on my shopping list. Most likely big enough to see on stage, but lacking touch input so Iā€™d need like a wireless keyboard+touchpad combo, like the ones they sell for HTPC users? Iā€™m not sure how to handle that part. A separate keyboard and a trackball mouse on top of the keyboard could work, too, I guess.

As far as backups go, I hope to have a spare for most in the end but duplicating all this is pretty costly. I might get a cheap Korg workstation (Krome or something) or just use a midi keyboard with the V-Machine to get sounds that will have to suffice in the rare event something actually happens. Build the spares when I can. Iā€™ve been meaning to find out how Cantabile stores data, like songs and racks and such, if itā€™s not a binary format and it makes any sense I might use git to store all my settings and have them backed up with a clear history of changes.

Thanks for pointing out that MIDI pedal input -thing, Iā€™ve been searching for something like that for a while. Looks like it would fit the setup pretty well.

Iā€™ve used Ivory in the studio, Iā€™d definitely buy Ivory II for the live setup. Itā€™s amazing.

Thanks again!

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Cantabile stores songs, racks etc. in plain text JSON format, so you can keep it in Git and see diffs and so on. Thatā€™s what I do :relaxed:

Neil

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Hey Kristian,

Iā€™d very much encourage you to take the plunge - Iā€™ve been pretty much where you are now (plus a bit of guitar kit in addition to the keyboard rig) and since moving to a very lean Cantabilized setup, havenā€™t looked back!

Just a few pointers from looking at your proposed setup and my own experience:

Your current PC3x could also be a useful master keyboard for your Cantabile setup - great keybed, lots of sliders that can be useful in Cantabile, more switch / pedal inputs than most alternatives. You might consider keeping it just as a ā€œdumbā€ master keyboard (even though itā€™s a bit on the heavy side). Iā€™ve looked at lots of (lighter) alternatives, but nothing has really convinced me to move away from my two Kurzweils

Second, you might consider moving to a leaner PC setup: instead of a full rack PC with ADA8200 and UPS etc, you could pretty much get the same (if not more) from a middle-of-the-road performance notebook (gamer laptops!), plus a multi-out USB audio interface like the MOTU Ultralite mk3 (10 individual outputs). No need for a UPS - laptop can run on battery if needed - and far less to shlep around - will all easily fit into a sleek laptop bag. And a backup solution is also easier - far easier to carry a second laptop than a second 6U rack with all your stuff.

I run my setup on an Acer Aspire Nitro VN7 gaming notebook (quad-core i7), and Iā€™m super-happy with the performance I get. I used to bring a 2U rack case with my RME Babyface plus an ADA8200, but with the MOTU Ultralite, I get sufficient outputs with less to carry; and the latency is certainly good enough.

Regarding display/keyboard/mouse: I rarely touch my laptop during a gig - mostly, itā€™s stepping through pre-loaded setlists, and this is easily done with two dedicated buttons on my PC3. The only thing I need during a gig is a small 7-inch HDMI display that shows me the currently loaded song and song state (Show Notes View).

You can see my setup here: Show me your Cantabile Rig! - thatā€™s still with the Babyface/ADA8200 (the mini-rack at my feet).

An even smaller setup (when thereā€™s a decent weighted MIDI keyboard already on-site) is here: Show me your Cantabile Rig! - this one includes my MOTU Ultralite.

BTW: great idea keeping track of song changes using git - Iā€™ll integrate this into my setup ASAP!

Good luck with your Cantabile journey!

Cheers,

Torsten

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I wonā€™t go into detail. Neil and Torsten have as usual been very thorough in their responses. I went completely midi/vst a year ago and havenā€™t regretted it for a minute. I also used a Kurzweil PC3 (76). I sold that and purchased a Novation Impulse 61. Less than 1/2 the weight and works perfectly with Cantabile. I also use a Casio PX-5 as my lower keyboard- all internal sounds are disabled and the keyboard acts purely as a midi controller. My setup is pretty simple- an early generation Intel i7 Toshiba laptop with an upgraded solid state hard drive, using the the onboard sound card, signal out through the head phone jack and into a small Behringer mixer for additional volume and then a direct line into the main PA board. The laptop is set up on a Quik Lok LPH-003 Laptop Stand which I position in front and to the right of midline when gigging- that way I can easily see the screen.

Once you get the hang of Cantabile, you will find that you have incredible flexibility in the variety of sounds you can access (through VSTiā€™s), how they are combined (layering), keyboard splits, changing sounds (state changes) in the middle of songs- itā€™s all much much easier. Cantabile does have a learning curve. Although I was able to start using its basic functions right away, it took me about 3 months to really feel comfortable with it and take advantage of its features. Patience has its rewards!

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Thanks for the wisdom, Torsten and Lee!

I have thought about the laptop route. True, it would save me quite a few kilograms from the setup and I kinda do like the fact that it would be easier to just grab the laptop and make changes to the setlist without opening the whole rack. However, I have a few reasons why Iā€™m hesitant to go that route:

  1. Harder to upgrade piece by piece
  2. Securing a good one at decent price may take a bit of scouting
  3. Laptop power supplies seem a bit untrustworthy; I have several laptops and some of the power supplies will create a whine in the PA (like plugging the laptop into my X32 USB card for multitrack recording), this does not clearly correlate with the price of the laptop
  4. Even though it is easier to have a backup laptop, if something goes wrong itā€™s less than likely Iā€™ll be able to fix it without buying another one. A motherboard issue, for instance
  5. While the Ultralite seems nice, Iā€™d need to buy my own DI-boxes/DI-rack

I havenā€™t done the calculations about how much weight difference the setups would have, but I wouldnā€™t be surprised if the laptop setup was 20kg lighter (smaller rack, no ups, etc). Cost wise these practically no difference, calculated using a Lenovo Y500 I found for 600e on a normally good site. Total cost would end up 7% lower, due to pricier RAM and Ultralite + 4-channel rack DI vs. RME PCI + converters.

I donā€™t know, Iā€™m pretty hesitant about it, even with the enormous weight savings. Laptops seem like such a hassle to get configured right for stable and low latency operation and can it really run all the plugins? What about heat? Though I guess a gamer laptop has to be built with heat dissipation in mindā€¦

I think Iā€™ll do the weight calculations on this and look at it again with fresh eyes. Maybe my back will convince me :wink:

About using the Kurzweil as the keyboard, itā€™s been somewhat unstable lately. Display issues. It will randomly stop updating the contents of the display, with misplaced pixels all over the place. I will most likely end up finding a simpler hammer weighted 88-key controller to use on gigs.

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I can only speak from my experience, but my laptop is 5 years old. As I mentioned, an early i7 processor, 6gb ram, and an upgraded 500gb solid state drive. Iā€™ve never had a bit of trouble with the laptop.

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Hi Foranamo,
Regarding laptops, there are a lot of business class E6430 laptops coming on to Ebay as they reach the end of their 3 year support warranties from Dell. I picked up a quad core i7 3740qm for Ā£200. It has lots of processing power and can run at full turbo, 3.5ghz, for most practical Cantabile purposes (I had four instances of Diva set to divine with different pad sounds with long releases and could put my forearms all over the keys without and dropouts). Admittedly it does self-throttle when running Intel burn test
They are easy to work on (for a laptop). I replaced the heat transfer compound without too much trouble, which helped by some 5ā€™C. There are lots of spares and teardown videos around too.
The screen is truly naff, which helps keep their resale price down.
Cheers,
Neil B

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Hi Kristian,

just two quick remarks:

  • on the ā€œwhineā€ from laptops: yes, been there, but Iā€™ve really only had that issue when plugging directly into the laptopā€™s audio port (unbalanced); never in my experience when going through a (reputable) audio interface and balanced connection. For cases like this (when just using a laptop eg for DJ duty), I usually carry a line isolator box in my laptop bag.

  • on the need for DI-boxes with the Ultralite: I donā€™t see the need currently - the Ultralite puts out symmetrical audio on all ports. So the only thing I carry is a small ā€œcable treeā€ of short TRS --> XLR cables wrapped together - compact and light-weight. From this cable tree, I connect to the stage box (or in my case, the DL32R on the stage) via an XLR snake. Only reason for a DI box would be if you had a mixing desk without adequate gain control (interface levels too hot for the input) - but you would have a similar issue with the ADA8200, which also outputs line levels.

Cheers,

Torsten

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I remember in the late 1960ā€™s, and on into the 1990ā€™s performing in small and medium venues, hauling a trailer load of huge PA speakers, power amps, Hammond B3 w/Leslie. electric piano, huge guitar amps,etc. It took a lot of time to unload and setup, and even then the sound was loud and indistinguishable at best. But, along came samplers and keyboards with multiple samples and smaller amps and PA systems. What a wonderful concept, especially as I was aging. My EMU Proteus keyboard was my best friend. I had been a computer nerd since the early 1980ā€™s and learned how to program, and build my own computers, thus embracing new technology. I have many musician friends near my age that are stuck in their youth, and consider themselves purists. Many guitar pickers I know would NEVER try a Line 6 simulator, much less a computerized amp sim. Not I. Most gigs I perform, I use two inexpensive midi controller keyboards, laptop on stand, double keyboard stand, audio interface, and if not running through house PA, a small keyboard amp. I run my guitar through my audio interface and out of the same keyboard outs. The sound I put out with that simple rig is clean and absolutely amazing. I have been using this for several years, I can setup in 15 minutes or less including the 3 trips to my vehicle. I spend more time on creating now. I am not in overkill mode with racks and wiring. My back isnā€™t killing me and I am not sweating gear setups before the gig starts. I can relax and and have a drink and visit with patrons before the gig now. I am not spending all the money I earn on equipment. I donā€™t want the latest $4000 keyboard, because I have the best, and newest sounds coming from my laptop. I understand with larger venues comes a more broadened setup, but larger venues also have technicians that take up the slack. There is a youtube video showing Billy Joelā€™s setup, which is a midi controller built into a piano frame running Ivory on a laptop. It convinced me!! I am happier, my wallet is thicker and I spend more time performing without hassle. Cantabile 3 is what I have been looking to achieve for the last 10 years. My sets are now smoothly running without flaw. If a time comes when I am play huge venues on a regular basis, my keyboard tech will handle my gear as I drink wine and eat from a cheese and fruit tray in my elaborate dressing facility.

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ā€¦and even then, I bet youā€™d still want to be using Cantabile!

Neil

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You can bet on that , Neil !!

@brad. My endorsement checks should be sent to my management team as I will be vacationing on the Riviera !!

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I would be willing to bet that to most people who made the change, this thread would be renamed from ā€œtaking the plungeā€ to ā€œsigh of reliefā€ā€¦lol !

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I really suggest taking some time and watching the tutorial videos, even if you have not purchased the program. It will get you excited about all the amazing things this program can do. You spend all your time setting things up at home, but when you get to the gig, all you have to do is call up the song or the set list. If your band calls a song you havenā€™t played in a long time, itā€™s there without having to think about what midi channels you need, what sounds, etc. - itā€™s still there exactly the way you performed it last.

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