Cantabile Locks Up

21

I just took a look at the last file you uploaded and it’s a crash in MODO BASS 2.

However, the exception didn’t get fully reported - it’s still in the exception handler.

Wondering… how long did you leave it in hung state before manually capturing the memory dump with Task Manager. Given the size of the crash dump, procdump could take 60+ seconds to finish capturing the crash.

Here’s what I think might have happened:

  1. MODO threw an exception
  2. ProcDump was invoked and started capturing crash report, which took a long time and made it look like Cantabile was hung.
  3. Before ProcDump finished, you manually captured a memory dump with task manager
  4. ProcDump either finished in the background (please check if there’s a crash report there now) or ProcDump was aborted due to the manual memory dump you invoked.

Either way, it looks like MODO BASS was the original culprit here.

Brad

22

Some more thoughts:

  • Next time this happens, before using Task Manager to capture a memory dump - take a look at procdump in task manager and see if it’s doing anything (ie: CPU usage is up), if so wait for it.
  • You could reconfigure procdump to capture minidumps (-mm command line option) instead of full memory dumps - these are much faster/smaller (probably 200Mb instead of 25GB) but obviously don’t have as much information.

Basically, the memory dump you did capture, captured that an exception happened and was being reported… but didn’t capture the actual exception (aside from the fact that it happened in MODO).

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23

So this is weird and may be a root cause of my issues. I followed Brad’s instructions to force Cantabile to crash. However, I don’t get the “kaboom”; it just hangs, indefinitely. When I attempt to end the Cantabile task in Windows Task Manager, it does nothing (and with no crash dump file in the C:\Dumps folder). This is the same exact behavior I see when Cantabile stops responding and hangs while I’m playing. What’s even weirder is that there are two Cantabile tasks visible in task manager when the forced crash occurs, one is running and one is suspended.

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@brad I uploaded the log.txt file and memory dump file from the Cantabile process for your review and insight. Only the running task created a memory dump; the suspended task’s dump file was null. Thank you again for all your assistance!

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24

I haven’t had a chance to look at the logs/dumps yet however…

If there’s a second instance of Cantabile, that suggests you haven’t disabled Cantabile’s own crash reporting. When enabled and Cantabile crashes, it relaunches a copy of itself in “crash reporting mode” which captures the crash report and uploads.

But if the crash reporter is disabled, it shouldn’t be doing that.

If it is and you’re sure the crash reporter is disabled, then there might be a bug there that I need to address.

Could I get you to also test something else. Try the secret kill switch again but with nothing loaded (empty set list, new empty song) and see what happens.

25

So I’ve been working with Brad on trying to narrow down the root cause of the crashes. As always, Brad has been phenomenal, going above and beyond. We are so lucky to have an app owner/developer that is so responsive and attentive to the user community!

Based on Brad’s findings, it appears that multiple IK Multimedia plugins behave badly. That’s disappointing because I generally like IKM’s software, their instruments and sounds, and I have a substantial financial investment in their plugins. It’s also not surprising because many of the IKM plugins are old, badly written, poorly supported, and infrequently updated.

I have therefore decided to abandon IKM plugins altogether and replace them within all my racks, songs and set lists as follows:

Replace MODO Bass 2 with Spectrasonic Trilian.
Replace Amplitube 5 with NI Guitar Rig 7.
Replace SampleTank 4 with Air Music’s Xpand2, Structure 2, and Hype samplers/ROMplers.
Replace SampleTron 2 with Air Music’s Mellotron.
Replace Miroslav Philharmonik with Musio and Kontakt symphonic string and horn libraries.
Replace B-3X organ with UAD Waterfall B3.

I own all of the replacement plugins, with the exception of Trilian which arrives on Wednesday. This will take me a bit of time and work, however I absolutely need “five 9s” uptime for live performance and moving off Cantabile is not an option for me.

I’m wondering if anyone else has had similar (or even different) experience with IKM plugins and Cantabile?

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26

I do not use IKM, but I’ve had similar problems while running multiple instances of some plugins. The problems were isolated to “not ready for primetime” OEMs.

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27

I gave up on IK plugins several years ago, too unstable. Don’t know how much guitar work you do but FWIW on amp modeling you might want to look at TH-U and Neural DSP… they seem to be more popular and are updated often (I use both, along with S Gear, all very stable and quite good). I tried a few versions of Guitar Rig, I think the last one was 5, it just didn’t do it for me; although I have heard that 7 is better. And of course there’s Tonex and NAM captures, if you don’t do much tweaking of tones.

Some here have run into issues with Kontakt, it seems to be a frequent offender. OTOH I still run 1 instance of Kontakt 6 player and it’s been fine for a few years. There are so many older and newer good instruments using Kontakt format it’s often hard to get away from. Maybe reduce the outputs to just one stereo pair, there’s a way to force extra outputs to be disabled in C4 but I can’t remember exactly how.
Of course YMMV, do what works for you.
Tom

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28

Thanks, Tom. I’m not a guitar player. I just use an amp sim with Orange Tree Samples electric guitar vsts for rhythm comping, so I’m not as picky about the quality of the simulation. I already own GR7 as part of Komplete.

Since I am in way too deep with Kontakt instruments, that’s a good tip to reduce the number of outputs. I have several linked racks with Kontakt 8, so I’ll have to address each one individually, I believe.

29

I’m not a fan of SampleTank, but B-3X and Tonex have been working without any issues in my (pretty complex) Cantabile setup.

And Trillian does have its own issues, with Spectrasonics plugins architecture driving quite a bit of system resource load. MODO bass has been working nicely in my production setup for years now.

30

Torsten, are you using the original MODO Bass or MODO Bass 2? I am using the latter and Brad has noted that it has been the cause of more than a couple crashes recently.

Also, which Windows version do you run? I’m on 11 25H2.

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Fyi: I have had intermittent issues with stuck notes in Modo Bass 2. IKM support never responded to my issue.

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MODO Bass 2

Same here - 25H2

33

After a few hours working with Trilian, I have to say it is an absolute game changer for anyone that plays left-hand (keyboard) bass. IMHO it sounds so much better than MODO Bass 2 and also allows supports using CC64 sustain pedal for legato playing (which MODO 2 does not). As Torsten pointed out, Trilian is CPU “heavier” than MODO, but since I removed Sampletank and B-3X from my set list, I’m not seeing any additional load.

34

I wanted to provide an update. After removing and replacing all IKM plugins, I have been stable through three live shows and countless hours of rehearsal and studio playing.

Previously, I was experiencing intermittent mid-song crashes and general instability. The only crash I’ve had over the past three weeks was switching between songs, and after doing some extensive editing of songs and racks. I consider that a one-off outlier, but will continue to monitor.

The IKM plugins that I removed include Sampletank 4, Sampletron 2, Syntronik 2, Mkroslav Philharmonik, Amplitube 5, MODO Bass 2, and Pianoverse. I don’t know which specific plugin(s) were problematic, or whether it was interaction between IKM plugins or with other non-IKM plugins.

I may look at reintroducing Pianoverse, as I much prefer its Steinway and Yamaha grand pianos to those of Pianoteq 9.

35

So I ended up removing Pianoverse (again) because it was causing Windows “invalid access to memory location” errors, which crashes Cantabile. All of my Pianos are now either in Kontakt, Falcon, or Pianoteq. It’s a shame that IKM instrument plugins are so poorly written, because they sound great IMO.

36

Thanks for this list. I’ve also reached the point of giving up on IKMM. In addition to the occasional Cantabile hangs, I’m finding that both programs are now producing blank or frozen UIs, whether as VSTs or standalone apps. (The VSTs still run in Cantabile and make the proper sounds, but they cannot be edited or added to.) This has been happening for a year or so, and always corrects itself if/when the revision updates. Re-installing the apps is rarely successful, though, and as the products have matured the updates are becoming infrequent. I’ve contacted IK Support about this, but heard nothing back to date.

Fortunately, I only use two IK products anymore, Amplitube Leslie and SampleTank. I’ve even reduced my dependence on ST to horns and a few ‘ooh’ and ‘aah’ vocals.

I’m about to try to find replacement, but I’ve already done so in a couple of areas. For those who in the same situation, allow me to add some alternatives to the original list:

I have found that MusicLab’s RealEight produces excellent, expressive bass. It comes with the Guitarix amp/cab sim, which while not in the same league as Guitar Rig (or AT5), is more than flexible enough to create convincing bass amps, while using few system resources.

The other RealGuitar family members are excellent, expecially RealGuitar (acoustic) and RealStrat and far beyond the sounds that SampleTank can muster.

If one only needs a limited set of pedals and effects (or has them elsewhere), S-GEAR by Scuffham Amps is a great replacement. It has far fewer amp models, but they are better sounding (IMO) and more flexible than AT5. As an example, while there is no Vox model, I have been able to coax great clean Vox sounds from the Fender Blackface model, and crunchy ones from the arguably ‘Dumble’ model. And the wah pedal is as good an emulation as I’ve ever heard!

GForce’s M-Tron Pro is scarily close to the real deal. And it’s based on the Streetly libraries.
[/quote]

This is my biggest conundrum. I use the organ in my Nord Stage 3 running into Amplitube Leslie. The Stage has the ability to trigger the keyboard in ‘hot’ mode, using only the first contact row of the keybed, which feels more like a Hammond organ to me. It does not send this data to MIDI Out, though, so if I want the hot keybed action the Nord has to stay. I’m looking for either a dedicated Leslie sim or an organ plugin that allows the Nord organ to be added to the amplifier chain. 1) That’s probably an expensive way to choose, given that I already have the organ; and 2) most offerings spend 80-90% of their efforts on the organ side of things, and 10-20% on the spinning speaker. I’m very particular about my Leslie sound, and none of the choices I’ve auditioned to date pass muster – except AT Leslie (a/k/a T-Racks Leslie). Anybody have thoughts on this?

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37

Thanks for the feedback @drawbars. I can happily report that since ditching all IKM products (except T-Racks 6,which I use for a few effects), I have had ZERO issues. I believe that Pianoverse and Sampletank were the worst offenders, based on Brad’s analyses of the dump files I sent him. So you may be okay with B-3X and/or Amplitube. Like you, I received zero response from IKM to the issues Brad and I reported. My only regret is the hundreds of dollars I invested over the years in IKM plugins that are now useless to me.

38

Yeah, I hear you about the money spent. In addition to the main Sampletank and Amplitube programs, I sprung for SampleTron, Miroslav, and a bunch of amp and speaker models over the years. I’ve been using SampleTank since version 2, and while the sounds and capabilities have improved over the years, the CPU bandwidth and reliability have not. And now it seems that IK is moving on to ‘better things.’ :roll_eyes:

It’s good to hear that ST is much worse than AmpliTube. I don’t use AT for guitar amps any more, just as its (decidedly great) Leslie simulation. And there don’t seem to be many alternatives that don’t couple directly with a tonewheel organ. Maybe I can limp along with AmpliTube Leslie without the UI, as I created a couple dozen Leslie programs when I first bought it, and I can still reliably call them up in Cantabile. I just can see them any more! :angry:

39

For a Leslie simulator, you might try Universal Audio’s Waterfall Rotary Speaker plugin as an alternative to the Amplitube Leslie. It is the same Leslie that is bundled with UAD’s Waterfall B3 organ. Both the B3 and Rotary Speaker plugins are dirt-cheap and sound great IMO.

40

TBH, I wouldn’t generalize the issues with IK’s sample-based offerings to all their range. Let me come to their defence on a couple of products that I rely on heavily.

I’ve been using IK’s B3-X for years now in my (pretty complex) Cantabile rig, and it’s been nothing but super-solid. The only annoyance I have with it is the launch time for its GUI, but beyond that, no issues.
If you are looking for an alternative, I’ve had solid experience with Blue3 - formerly from GG Audio, now Cherry Audio. Also, the old VB3 by GSI is part of my standard arsenal; I’ve not really become friends with its successor (VB3-II) - sonically not 100% my cup of tea; it just feels a bit too “nasal” for my taste. But I gravitate towards Rock-oriented sounds, not so much Jazz or Gospel…

Also, I’ve moved all my live guitar processing to IK’s Tonex - and that also has been super-stable and reliable. I don’t need the fancy “everything-and-the-kitchen-sink” approach of Amplitube - I’m happy with decent amp sounds, which Tonex provides excellently, and a few bread-and-butter stomp effects. Everything else around that, I can orchestrate in Cantabile far more easily than within Amplitube - and with the exact plugins I prefer!

OTOH, I’ve completely gotten rid of Sampletank and all their other sample-based instruments - I’m just not a fan of their sounds, and I’ve felt some of the stability issues. I’ve also tested Pianoverse, and wasn’t impressed, both performance-wise (too much CPU-hogging for my taste) and the sound, which didn’t give me anything I didn’t already have…

I’ve pretty much gotten rid of my typical “sample repositories” like Sampletank or Xpand! - for classic Rompler fare, I prefer M1 or Triton, and when I need something more sophisticated, I reach for specialists, e.g. AudioModeling for saxes or flute sounds.

Pretty happy so far! Every time I hear about some exciting new piece of virtual gear, I typically play with it for a bit, then test it head-to-head against my existing stuff - and stay with my existing setup…

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