Binding against state change behaving inconsistently after 1st song load



New to Cantabike, beeng conifiguring it today, and sorted most issues. But this one persists and I can’t think of anything than a bug… since it works fine … except from time to time after a song load…

I have Kontakt as a plugin in a Rack.
I use one single preset of Kontakt loading a multi instrument with all my patches for a song parts.
From one song to another I simply want to send a program change to Kontakt switching from part 1 (piano) to Part II Brass, for instance through the song.

I created a set list, added few songs
Against each song, I created few states to represent each part of the song, .
Each state was given a program number corresponding to the Multi instrument patch in Kontakt

Then I created a Binding based on Song state and use the selected state program outputting this to Kontakt as a Program Change (bank) corresponding to the program number.
Another binding from a midi pedal trigger the state change in Cantabile.

It works almost always… but from time to time without explanation, when I switch to a new song…, the press of the pedal does actually trigger the state change in Cantabile but the program change is not sent to Kontakt. However if I manually go back or continue to move through various state… suddenly it starts working. And I can reposition on first state and all works fine. It only happens after switching to a new song and sometimes (50% ) it works first time without any issues.

In the picture I show, The first 2 states generally won’t work (but sometimes they can work), and then all works fine.

I’d be happy to get some ideas ?

Thank you


Hi Stephane,

I don’t know if it will help but have you tried using the event delay, your pic shows 0ms maybe a slight delay would clear it up. That’s all I can think of within C3 that might help. When I use Kontakt I load the rack for the whole set and use midi routing to switch between the slots using states. I refrain from sending program changes to Kontakt while playing live.



Hi Dave

Thanks for the response. In fact I the first line with 0ms is a midi program change to an external keyboard. The second line is what is expected to change Kontakt program, but I use song state and there are no event delay I can set…

Can I ask you about Kontakt setup though as I am curious…Would you load Kontakt instrument on different channels and then simply re-route as per your song or your state ? Cause then you do not use Kontakt Multi instruments capability ?



Hi, sorry if I misunderstood your usage. I do indeed load Kontakt instruments on however many channels I need inside a rack and then use an input matrix I built inside the rack which has the abilty to layer or play singles depending on the need by using rack states to switch the various layers on and off . I also made separate racks for Organ, Horns, Strings etc … each loaded with my favorite instruments. So I do use the multitimbral aspect of Kontakt, but I use the funtions of Cantabile to access it. In this snapshot from my strings rack you can see how I have my states and my channel switching matrix and it only uses one channel

In this shot you see a more loaded up layered sound with multiple channels enabled

Another advantage of this arrangement is the tails all sound out because there are no program changes in mid song. Hope this explains how I use it.



What state behaviour do you have set on the Kontakt plugin? Could it be that Cantabile is modifying the plugin’s state while the program change is being sent, sometimes? For your setup I’d expect Kontakt to have no state behaviour, as you want a static multitimbral synth that’s modified by program changes rather than patch selection or bank reloading.



Hi Dave/Neil

Thanks again. I forgot to say something critical… I want to use for live play with Band, so loading time between song has to be small… That is why I started to go with the approach of Multi with kontakt… I basically have all my patches in one bank and that’s all I need for now… switching quickly is key.

So Dan I will review what you did… with all those racks are you not facing any long load time ?

Back to the questions, those are the State Behaviour setup right now

What you say Neil COULD make perfect logical sense… but then I did try to wait as well 30 seconds prior to changing to next state… and it failed. the state change does occur on screen but Kontakt is just not receiving /Processing the program change, even after 30sec the song is loaded.

I have roughly 29 songs and what I did was setup 1 rack with Kontakt and one with my external keys. Then I basically change the programs… Right now I only use Kontakt as a sound module to my existing keys… so not layering of sound yet… pretty basic for now.


You probably shouldn’t have “Selected Program” state behaviour - Cantabile will be modifying the current Kontakt “program” as well as doing the same via a program change. If you want to use a program changes from bindings etc, you probably shouldn’t be modifying the program via state change behaviour. Regardless of how long you waited, if the program change was received prior to its effects being overwritten, you’ll never see there change you want. So try disabling “Selected Program” state behaviour and see if it improves the problem.



This is correct - you should turn this off in this case. However… unless you’ve got different states with different pseudo presets selected it shouldn’t matter - Cantabile should realize the same pseudo preset is already selected and leave it alone.

@sscherrer - basically this should work. Please try the suggestions above and if you still can’t get it work let me know and I’ll look into it. Perhaps send me you song file and I’ll check it out.


Hi Stephane,

I also preload all my set lists ( check the option at Tools>Preload SetList ) so all instruments and racks for a set are instant loading. When they are unused they are bypassed (all racks for the set are in every song ). As each song is selected whatever is needed is enabled. You need a bunch of memory but it works well. It all depends on your memory capacity for live work I’ve found when working with samples.



Hi both

I will try today your suggestions and revert back.

On the pseudo preset… I will read more about this but this looks indeed quite interesting !!! I did what the way I did as I am starting on those integration… and basically sending a program change was level of knowledge… But indeed it looks a lot easier.

Thanks again. You guys help me a lot!




Ok I tested and removed the selected program state plugin. The problem remains.

I tried using presets and rack states and it indeed was a good and very simple idea to implement, but there’s no way I can change live the patch into Kontakt since any change requires few seconds. I need instant change hence I went back to a Multi with my instrument and binding issuing the program change.

I have changed slightly using a linked rack but essentially facing same issue : from time to time, but only after switching to a new song, the first few state change into the song occur, but the patch number into kontakt do not change. All works fine after even if I reposition to first state…

At this stage, I’d like to understand where the issue is… Cantabile not issuing the program change, VST Host not receiving the program change, or kontakt not making the change… I guess I will look into logs ?.



Hi @sscherrer

Best bet would be to setup a simple example demonstrating the problem and email it to me and I’ll check it out.



SharedKontakt.cantabileRack (3.3 MB)

Ok. Create a simple set list with the following 2 songs. Both are relying on Shared Rack embedding Kontakt 5 as plugin that I have attached just in case. IN fact you could remove as you can witness the issue from the Bindings screen.

Make Me Smile.cantabileSong (7.6 KB)
Poem For The People.cantabileSong (37.5 KB)

What is not working :

  • If I am in Make me smile and select Poem for the people - NOT selecting any state - ie state Intro remains grey - The Song States Trigger defined under Bindings for Poem for the People will not get triggered first time used despite an actual song state change occurring from Intro to Intro 2. The light next to Song state does not flash green and the action is not occurring in Kontakt . However it works fine afterward for the next song state changes and even if reposition on the song first state manually. The moving from Intro to Intro2 gets triggered and send the program change

  • If instead I am in Make me Smile and select the Song Poem for People AND click on First state Intro, highlighting blue, all works fine, when I change state from Intro to Intro 2, it does detect it and send the program change first time.

I hope it is clear.

Let m know


Hi Stephane,

Thanks - I’ll look into this today.



i Stephane,

Just been playing with this and I think I must be missing something…

I’m not sure what you mean by this:


Have a look at this video, where I think I’m following your instructions as described. Start Cantabile, with “Make Me Smile” loaded then on first switch to “Poem for the People”, the binding definitely fires as shown by the LED in the bindings panel and the program change shown in MIDI monitor for Kontakt.

(I tested this with preloaded set list turned on and off)

Let me know if I’m missing something.



Hi Brad

(responded by email but this did not show up here, so replying direct here in case this got lost)

Thanks for this. Go into live mode mode, you see the song and the state in top bar This is what I was talking about, The setlist is preloaded indeed

I did confuse you as indeed the problem is on moving from Intro to Intro2 … not on the song load and the initial song state… which indeed works for me too in all configuration. This is just after on the next state change, normally triggered by a pedal on my setup.

Hope it clarified this time. I will record too if you can’t reproduce it.



Hi @sscherrer

Just tried this again and moving to the next state (from Intro to Intro2) also did fire the binding… if you could create a video demoing the problem that’d be great - I’m obviously missing something.



Hi Brad

Thank you for your reply.
Ok give me a week as I’m going away and I’ll post the video like you with the midi monitor on Kontakt and demonstrate what I’m saying. The key is change song by clicking in live mod on the next song title, but don’t select the first state.
Then trigger a state change through a pedal or whatever and it will normally not fire the binding for the program change on the plugin. I’ll video it no worries.



HI brad, I clearly forgot about it as I moved to a different way and started learning about the program a bit more…
But I did stumble again with same problem .I opened a new thread in the community and uploaded full video with log and song itself. It is clear from the monitor that Program Change is not triggered - intermittently - despite a proper state change .

I feel a bit stupid as its quite a basic setup in this song but really I don’t understand why it works and then not…

New thread opened with all details as FYI 5mn ago in community. But all is here!Aq6OEbdqlT3cjK1jzGeWtahbFC9jPw