Thinking of doing DMX Stage Lighting through C3 - best practice?

[jfeniello]

I use DMXIS also. I was a little weary about the limitations of DMXIS, but at the end of the day, those limitations are it’s power and realistically, i don’t have time to build enough scenes/etc in DMXIS much less if it did it in something more powerful :).
I haven’t done a show with it integrated in C3 yet, but i plan on doing what Derek does.
Derek, do you have any tips on how you worked though all of it? I see 50 songs, building umpteen scenes, then doing a midi track per song to work it all out, and it just feels overwhelming to me. (i do use 75% backing tracks, but they’re not midi generated).

thanks
-jim

[a6325435]

My DMXIS interface just arrived, and I have been experimenting. Some questions

1. The “C3 plugin presets” don’t seem to do anything. Should they? How do folk use these?

2. I’ve created some basic presets within DMXIS for standard “stage washes” which directly map to rack states. I then expect to use these across several songsby having each song split into a different song state for each lighting effect. I anticipate 1 change per verse. If I want one song that has these basic stage washes, but with the addition of another light would I need to create a whole set of new presets? Or is there a way to apply the existing presets and then adjust the correct fader for the additional light?

3. Selecting the rack state sends the preset number to DMXIS via MIDI on channel 16. I send the Selected State Program to the loopback port which then routes it to the plugin. Is there a better way of selecting presets between C3 and DMXIS?

Thanks.

[Derek]

@jfeniello

I use DMXIS also. I was a little weary about the limitations of DMXIS, but at the end of the day, those limitations are it’s power and realistically, i don’t have time to build enough scenes/etc in DMXIS much less if it did it in something more powerful :).
I haven’t done a show with it integrated in C3 yet, but i plan on doing what Derek does.
Derek, do you have any tips on how you worked though all of it? I see 50 songs, building umpteen scenes, then doing a midi track per song to work it all out, and it just feels overwhelming to me. (i do use 75% backing tracks, but they’re not midi generated).

thanks
-jim

Hi, I simply created a bank for each song and then all the individual cues. Bank, Cue is selected by MIDI notes in the sequence being played back by Cantabile.

It is laborious, but the results are worth it. BTW I build up the DMXIS trigger sequence in Cubase as part of the backing track generation. So it is easy to jump about whilst programming, cut and paste the note cues, etc.

PS: Can’t say I’ve seen many limitations in DMXIS. It does everything I want. What limitations do you think it has?

[Derek]

@a6325435 . I cant really comment on this approach as I don’t use Cantabile in this way to select DMXIS presets. I am selecting cues from a MIDI file programmed to select the cues. Or I use Bass notes from one of my keyboards for a song we did free form (no backing track), or for some other songs (mainly intros) I mapped a MIDI CC in DMXIS, which is generated by one of my foot pedals on my FC300, to step through cues.

[a6325435]

@a6325435

If I want one song that has these basic stage washes, but with the addition of another light would I need to create a whole set of new presets? Or is there a way to apply the existing presets and then adjust the correct fader for the additional light?

To answer my own question - yes I’ve found I can do this by using channel masks. I set up a basic preset - eg. Red Wash, and then switch to another DMXIS preset to bring up the additional light or strobe, or other effect. This 2nd preset will have all channels disabled or masked except those for the additional light. That way no other faders are affected.

So that means I can also have a single “guitar solo” DMXIS preset which applies to all songs. This preset could dim all the lights except the one on the guitar, while keeping whatever colour they happened to be on at the time.

That saves creating lots of permutations.

[a6325435]

I think I’ve worked out how I want to use DMXIS.

I’ve created my presets in DMXIS, and I can directly select each preset from within C3, for each rack state. That means I don’t have to mess about sending midi notes to DMXIS to change lighting presets. I just have to work out when I want to change the rack states.

Like this.

[terrybritton]

It is such a rush reading about your applications of DMXIS using Cantabile 3.

I set up my first computerized light shows using an interface I built for a Commodore 64, writing a program in BASIC that poked machine language into the registers which turned on and off the eight +5v outputs that an external user port offered. That was in 1992. There were better computerized or at least automated implementations (I worked on wiring one used for a giant illuminated map for Intermedia Systems in Boston back in the seventies!) but that Commodore interface was the first one I ever built and used.

Seeing how far it has come is a blast! 512 channels from the basic unit - cool cool cool!!!

Terry

[Derek]

@terrybritton

It is such a rush reading about your applications of DMXIS using Cantabile 3.

I set up my first computerized light shows using an interface I built for a Commodore 64, writing a program in BASIC that poked machine language into the registers which turned on and off the eight +5v outputs that an external user port offered. That was in 1992. There were better computerized or at least automated implementations (I worked on wiring one used for a giant illuminated map for Intermedia Systems in Boston back in the seventies!) but that Commodore interface was the first one I ever built and used.

Seeing how far it has come is a blast! 512 channels from the basic unit - cool cool cool!!!

Terry

Glad to assist on the nostalgia trip.

DMX is quite a neat system where you can just daisy chain lights together. And if 512 channels are not enough, then you just need more controllers or one with multi outputs! But with DMX IS, I was running a light show comprised of

• Two Equinox Microbars (4 mini pars per bar)
• One QTX LIght GOBO
• Two Chauvet varilights
• Six slung par cans
• Four floor par cans
• Haze machine
  All were multi colour with different fixed and variable effects, and you could get a really good light show going for small venues. If the venue was too small, you could just omit certain fixtures with no need to change the programming.

DMXIS as a VST plugin worked a breeze in Cantabile, including doing tempo synced effects from the Cantabile master transport tempo using DMXIS oscillators on different output channels.

Well worth checking out if you wish to run a light show from Cantabile.

[a6325435]

I now have DMXIS behaving itself and know how I want to use it. I’ve been able to feed it audio through C3 from kick and snare drums and enable the sound active setting. The tempo sync using a preset change every 4 bars is surprisingly good even when playing freeform, as long as we’re somewhere close to the tempo. This is quite exciting! Thanks for the pointers everyone.

Next, I’m looking for comments on whether I’m on the right lines.

1. What Lights to get?
2. What basic presets I need to set up?

So what lights?
I bought one of these 36W PAR to play with.
https://prolight.co.uk/product/slimline-1t36-cob-black-housing

One band member who also does discos has 2 ADJ profile panels like this

Profile Panel RGB

And a single moving head spot similar to this
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eshine-Moving-Wedding-Christmas-Birthday/dp/B01HWT988Q

Here is a rough stage plot. Dark purple are the lights I think we can get quite quickly, light purple are things for the future. I’ve spent some time researching, and discovered the principle of lighting the band members 1st, then the set, then the air. We don’t have haze, so I don’t think the single moving head spot will be much use to us.

I don’t think we’ll have room for a couple of 4 PAR T bars, so I thought we’d;

1. Mount a slimline COB light on each speaker tripod. We can start with 1 light per stand and go up to 2 if necesary. We can mount them underneath the speakers at roughly chest height using an O clamp, and/or on top of the speaker using the M10 flying screw thread.
2. Put the 2 panel lights around the drums.
3. Put another COB by the singer’s monitor on the floor pointing up at him.
4. Put another COB near (or behind) me pointing up at me.
5. If we get a banner, then we can have a COB or a bar uplighting it.

Does this seem reasonable? I need to try and sell this to the band so that they’ll get some of the lights.

Next question post from me will be about presets

[a6325435]

Next question is about presets.

I think I need sequences for the following scenarios. Any specific song programming could follow on afterwards.
Setup
Before Set
Start of Set before song
In Between Songs

Songs
Verse 1
Chorus 1
Verse 2nd option
Chorus 2nd option
Bridge

Solos
Guitar
Drum
Piano

I’ve read that the singer should mostly be lit in white, but anything goes for the rest of the band?

Any suggestions for a basic song preset? here’s my 1st stab at it, without having any idea what I’m doing, or the lights to try it out!

1. White light on singer, Light Orange on left speaker, Red on right speaker, Light blue on drummer and keyboard
2. 4 bars later, fade the orange and red between the speakers over 2 seconds.
3. 4 bars later fade the blue on drummer and keyboard to orange
4. 4 bars later fade the orange on the spaker to blue
5. 4 bars later fade orange on drummer and keyboard to red

I’m making this up as I go along. Can you tell?!

[Torsten]

Hmm, I would be a bit worried by all this lighting people from below - this is something you’d try to avoid, since it tends to make people look pretty spooky (try lighting yourself with a flashlight from below - horror movie stuff…).

I’d try to have the lights on people from the front or above - so at least one 4 PAR T bar mounted on a tripod would be helpful for pointing the light at the singer and yourself; you can point the lights on the speakers at the guitarist and bassist, so you’ll have individual lighting for each of you except the drummer - and for drummers it’s usually OK to light them from below; looks great with the drum kit.

And remember: if you don’t get blinded, the lights are too dark

In addition to the dedicated spots on each of you, I’d suggest using a couple of the COBs as color washes for the back of the stage - simply point them up the wall / curtain or your banner. Pretty easy to create a color foundation fitting your song this way.

This is the way I’m currently reworking our setup - I’ve currently got two cheap 4 PAR bars on stands and will add 4-5 single lights pointing up at the wall to provide background. That should do for most of the smaller gigs where the lights aren’t provided by the house.

Cheers,

Torsten

[Corky]

Blinded By The Light

That’s for all the Springsteen haters …like Fred

[a6325435]

@Torsten

(try lighting yourself with a flashlight from below - horror movie stuff…).

My wife said it makes a vast improvement.

@Torsten

I’ve currently got two cheap 4 PAR bars on stands and will add 4-5 single lights pointing up at the wall to provide background. That should do for most of the smaller gigs wh

I don’t see that we would have much space in a small pub for example for 2 Tbar on stands.

I found this which should reduce the space needed. What do you think?

T-bar lighting extension for speaker stand

Which cheap PAR bars do you use?

[Torsten]

@a6325435

I found this which should reduce the space needed. What do you think?

T-bar lighting extension for speaker stand » Stagg

Which cheap PAR bars do you use?

Hey, this looks interesting! Unfortunately will not work with our setup, since we work with the HK Audio Elements, so no speaker stands.

This is what we are currently using - cheap and cheerful, but roughly does what it needs to

In very small pub situations, we simply lay one or both of these bars on the ground somewhere and have them pointed at the ceiling. In these cases, no sophisticated light show, but simply slowly changing colors - good enough for a cramped pub

Cheers,

Torsten

[Derek]

Yeah, if you only uplight, you might end up looking like Gary Numan or Phil Collins in Mama - Hah-ha-Hah - eeeeuuuugggghhh.

If space is a premium, I would start with a pair of something like this (very similar to what Torsten is suggesting)

Gigabar MKII 4 x 30W RGB COB Bar System

These appear to be the renamed version of the Microbars I mentioned above. I have two of these and for small gigs, just these on their own are good. Plenty of light and you can put them behind the speakers facing back to the band and point them in different directions.

In terms of the cues and making it up as you go along, then that is pretty much what you do The thing with lights is to try and "keep your "powder dry and save the big effects for when needed. The first song I did was way too complicated as I was trying to be too clever, and it was a lot of work. I tend to listen to t song carefully to plan what it needs. A slow song does not need many changes or dynamic effects, an up tempo and dramatic song can be the complete opposite. For the cues themselves and colour choices, I listen to the lyrics to see what mood the song is and what colours it evokes.

Sometimes it is simple. Take 'Floyd’s “Wish You Were Here”…

So, so you think you can tell, heaven from hell, blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail, a smile from a veil …

Plenty of colour cues in there without having to think about it

[a6325435]

From all your replies a couple of gigabar MK2s seems to be the way to go. I’m discussing with the rest of the band.

Does anyone have a 16 channel dmxis fixture file for this light please? It isn’t there on the fixtures site.

[Derek]

Hi,

I have one for the Equinox Microbars, which may be compatible or at least good starting point. I can dig it out and provide it later on. This is one I wrote myself. They are quite easy to create as they are just text files. All you need is the manual for the lights and the DMX table.

[a6325435]

Yes please Derek, that would be helpful, I’ll need to modify it, as according to the manual the Microbar DMX layout is different from the the Gigabar.

On another note, I’ve been testing select the preset using the plugin API to select Bank and Preset as in my earlier post.

Thinking of doing DMX Stage Lighting through C3 - best practice?

I think I’ve worked out how I want to use DMXIS. I’ve created my presets in DMXIS, and I can directly select each preset from within C3, for each rack state. That means I don’t have to mess about sending midi notes to DMXIS to change lighting presets. I just have to work out when I want to change the rack states. Like this. [Capture12] [Capture13]

It doesn’t work properly all the time. Sometimes when i change rack state the DMXIS bank is selected properly, but no preset is selected. I suspect this is because of race conditions. The preset is a subset of the bank. My theory is that the bank has to be selected before the preset. If C3 sends the preset and the bank all at the same time, then it fails if the plugin has not finished selecting the bank before it starts with the preset. @brad does this seem plausible?

So now I’m testing using state bindings to send MIDI notes for the bank and preset, with the preset delayed by 100ms. This is working fine on initial testing.

[Derek]

Here you go.

Microbar.dmx.zip (403 Bytes)

The following is the webpage that I used as reference when creating the fixture

http://www.dmxis.com/creating-new-fixtures/

I did not bother with using their on line fixture editor . I am not sure way, but it could have been as simple as it did not exst when I wrote my own fixture definitions.

I have used bindings to send MIDI notes with no problems to select bank and cue . Whilst my lights were driven from the MIDI File, I used bindings to automatically select the first bank/cue before I started the playback of the MIDI file. The cue was slightly delayed from the bank and that always worked.

HTH

[a6325435]

An update:- We got the 2 Gigabars about 3 weeks ago, and they are brilliant! The band members weren’t too sure to start with (not more technology!), but as soon as we tried it, they liked it. Even during the rehearsals the lights add a bit of excitement. The singer gets a spotlight on him all evening so he’s happy!

Thank you everyone on this thread for steering me in the right direction. I thought I’d take the opportunity to describe the setup in case it gives anyone inspiration.

Hardware
As well as the DMXIS, I also got a DSPLIT to give me 4 DMX outputs. I run a 10 metre IEC power, audio and DMX snake from my 4u rack to each of the 2 main powered speaker and then split the power at the speakers to go to the lighting bar.

I can use a 3rd DMX output for the panel lights we have around the drums.

I’ve also repurposed one of these to quickly set all the faders when making new presets.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Worlde-EasyControl-9-Portable-Slim-Line-Controller/dp/B01DKQZFSC

It has 9 faders so 3 lots of RGB controls.

I’ve used BOME to modify the midi from this controller so that the 0 to 127 values map to one of 5 values. 0, 25%, 50%, 75% 100% in DMXIS for consistency.

DMXIS Configuration
I have grouped presets within DMXIS by whether they are “static” or “sequences”. Sequences switch between 2 or more presets every few bars.

I have a few standard sequences set up - eg GreenRed which has the front of the stage green, and the back red, and then smoothly fades to the opposite every 4 bars. Others are BlueWhite or RedYellow. I’ll add to these as I get time.

I also have some standard “solo” presets for Keys, Drums, and even the guitar player (if he behaves himself!) which dim the lighting except for the person who is soloing.

To start with I set up all my songs to use either one of the standard sequences. This gives me moving lighting across our setlist without too much effort.

I also have a standard “in between songs” preset which stops the seqence, dims the band lighting a little, but keeps the white light on our singer/frontman. The lights on the singer are consistently white all the way through.

I also have a “before set” preset for before we come on.

Each preset or sequence I create is reusable within other songs.

Sound Active
I can then add custom presets for particular songs. For example, my MOTU interface also runs the band live and monitor mixer, so I have access to all the indiviudal audio channels. We don’t amplify the kick and snare drums, but they are miced for recording, and now lighting! I’ve created separate aux audio sends from the Kick and Snare drum mics and brought them into C3. I can then enable that audio route into DMXIS for a single rack state. That gives me a way of having the kick drum flash the lights up to full white using a rack state. Same with the snare drum - for example for the intro to Jailhouse Rock. Our drummer likes this!

Cantabile Config
I have DMXIS in a “lighting” rack. Within C3, I trigger the DMXIS presets by sending MIDI notes from bindings on each rack state.

I have each scene or sequence as a rack state within a Lighting rack. The bindings are then triggered on Rack state load.

These MIDI notes going to DMIXIS change for each rack state which is why “target” is enabled as a state behaviour on the binding.

The VST automation enables the “autorun” for the sequences and disables it for the static presets.

Tempo
The DMXIS plugin takes the tempo from C3’s metronome. This is how it knows to switch the sequence after 4 bars. I’ve set the tempo in C3 against each song. We don’t play using backing tracks, but I’ve found that as long as we play at roughly the same speed the lighting changes match up fairly well over a verse. I do have a “next lighting preset state” on a footpedal switch so if the sync does drift then I can reset it mid song.

Typical Song
Normally, in a song I have a “pre” song state which loads up the default “in between songs” lighting preset
Then I have a binding within the song to move to the next “start song” state when I play the 1st note of the song - this obviously changes for each song. This next song state will change the lighting rack preset which will put us into the song sequence, and off we go. I do have to trigger the song start manually if I’m not playing to begin with.

Within the song if I have different song states for verses, or choruses then it is really simple to change the lighting rack state for that part of the song.

Problems
I’ve had some stability issues with the DMXIS plugin - where having the plugin GUI open and switching between presets has caused C3 to completely hang and require a restart. @Brad has been very supportive in helping to isolate the problem to the plugin itself, and the plugin developer is apparently looking at the issue.

Conclusion
This all means that we get a customised lighting show synced up to the music which is fully automated with almost no extra work from me on stage regardless of the setlist order. The VST automation in C3 along with the DMXIS features themeselves are very powerful.

Phew, that was a longer post than I expected!