Nice setup OrangeBug! How do you find the X-Keys for performance/feel?
10-15 minutes setup… I dream of mine talking anything under 45 minutes! 
Neil
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The X-Keys use a chicklet style switch, kind of like a laptop keyboard switch. That being said, they feel great! They are still quite velocity sensitive, so I can get expressive with them. The extremely short travel distance also means that it’s very easy to play fast licks across the keyboard. And the entire key depresses, so you can even play on the top of the keys (where the fulcrum would normally be on a standard keyboard).
I actually have the velocity sensitivity turned off on the X-Key 37, because I primarily use it for strings, organ, and synths. I have the expression pedal mapped in the global rack to modulate the main volume of the 2nd rack, so I can do nice swells with the strings.
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I have to have a setup of 15 minutes or less, as our contemporary service is the middle service, and there is a traditional service directly following. So we have to vacate the choir loft post-haste before the choir starts stepping on all our gear.
The case will have a tiered keyboard setup, with room for 2 X-Key 37s, if I end up getting a second one. It will hold my 2i4, Surface Pro 4, as well as the USB hubs, and maybe power as well. I’d also like to install a set of 4 DI transformers inside, so I can isolate the 4 unbalanced RCA outputs on my 2i4, and then send them directly into our sound system. Then all I’ll need to do is setup my stand, plop the case down, plug in power, 4 XLR cables, and be done.
I can post a pic of the current design (in Sketchup) when I get home, if you’re interested.
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My next RIG (in construction yet!!!) for live performances - trying to reduce it at máximum:
- Surface PRO 3 (i5 - RAM 8 GB)
- AKAI EIE PRO
- NI Komplete Kontrol S88
- Cantabile 3 performer
- Komplete 9 Ultimate and more sounds.
I hope to be able to setup an usable combination of everything.
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Nice rig, Montxo! That Akai EIE Pro looks wonderfully retro!
Neil
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Hi Neil,
yes and the best of all : it acts also as USB HUB with its 4 USB ports!!!
Cheers
OK, here is my live rig.
I started out with two keyboards, a (virtual) guitar amp, plus a number of external boxes for hammond, leslie etc. With Cantabile, I’ve stripped everything down to
- my masterkeyboard (Kurzweil PC3K) with keyboard stand
- my guitars (James Tyler Variax + Yamaha Acoustic)
- my music laptop (Acer Nitro) plus audio interface (RME Babyface or MOTU UltraLite Hybrid v3)
- my TC Helicon VoiceLive 2 voice processor + TC Helicon microphone MP-75
- two pedals (double switch + expression)
- a small 7’’ monitor on my keyboard for Cantabile Live View (laptop is normally closed) and an 8 ‘’ Windows tablet for lyrics & chords
Setup time is now down to less than 15 minutes when I’m in a hurry…
And this is what things look like in action:
I have now done three gigs with my Cantabilized rig and I’m not looking back! Works perfectly and lets me concentrate on the music…
Cheers,
Torsten
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Nice to see your setup, @Torsten, looks highly functional, yet compact!
I see you’re not using the audio outputs on the PC3x - does it ever worry you what you’d do if your computer failed mid-song? The reason I ask is that when I read the descriptions of the keyboard rigs of people who use plugins for their live sound, a common theme is that the controller keyboard is wired up to make a few basic sounds in case of emergency (assuming they’re not using a pure controller with no sounds). Knock up the volume, and they have a piano/organ etc.
In my setup, probably 90% of my sounds come from my rack, and 10% from my PC3x (primarily strings and a few electric pianos), and I’m in the process of moving towards making that 0% (using plugins instead of those PC3x sounds), to simplify my live setup (no need to wire up jack cables, no need for a mixer). But one thing that worries me is that I’d have no safety net mid-song if my computer flipped out. And since some of my band’s songs are 20 minutes long, that could be a problem.
Just interested to hear your perspective on relying entirely on the laptop.
Neil
@Neil_Durant I have been 100% soft synth for 6 yrs. I used to carry a Roland module around “just in case”, but left it home for the past 3 yrs. I never had to use it. Keyboards can also crash as they are also computers. My laptop crashed 1 time several yrs ago, but so did our PA and a bass amp. That was either from the heat or a power problem. I always run my gear thru a power protector and my laptop sits on a cooling pad. In contrast, I have had 2 keyboards (not contollers) fail on me in the last 10 yrs. I gig normally 2-3 days a week, big shows and tiny joints. Just my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.
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@Neil_Durant I am away from my rig for the next few days or I would be able to tell you exactly, but it is about 1/2 inch thick, has 2 quiet cooling fans on it, and runs off usb or DC power. The plus is that it also serves as a usb hub. My older laptop had 1 usb port, so I would send that usb to the cooling pad, which in turn would give me six usb ports. It was very inexpensive, but again, I will send details and some pics when I get back home.
Hey @Neil_Durant, as an IT manager, I’m paranoid by profession ;-). So I usually carry tons of backup stuff, especially for gigs where just driving back home for some replacement kit just isn’t an option.
So I usually take along a spare mixing desk (A Mackie DL1608 to back up my DL32R), a spare guitar and sometimes even a spare keyboard. And of course I bring along a fully installed backup laptop (that’s why I love @brad’s new set list verifyer) , complete with audio interface. I prefer this to a “crippled piano” scenario, since my setups have gotten pretty sophisticated - difficult to improvise with a few basic sounds.
If I was playing big paying gigs like you with songs lasting 20 minutes, I would probably run my backup laptop on hot standby, fully booted up, running the same setlist and either wired into separate channels or using hardware switches into the same channels.
But given that we are just a gang of amateurs doing this for fun (albeit with a pretty professional attitude…), we mostly play pub gigs, where our audience is more tolerant of a short break to replace a broken string, cable, blown tube or whatever goes wrong in the heat of the battle. So in case of catastrophic failure, I would simply boot up my backup machine and switch a couple of cables…
But so far, my setup has been pretty stable.
Cheers,
Torsten
The Acer Nitro only has one HDMI port… how do you sync/connect the 8" windows tablet to cantabile?
Do you run a seperate app on the tablet which sends midi program changes to cantabile?
Thanks!
Roelli.
Great perspective @Torsten, thanks! I have the same paranoia as you, and have backups of everything, including my main controller keyboard (this might seem extreme, but at 4pm on the day before my first gig with my band, pretty big gig, 1000 seater, my PC3x failed due to a dodgy power supply. I had to quickly source another to hire (not at all easy), and reprogram in all the quite numerous changes I’d made to my setups since my last data backup. Many lessons learnt that day!
I take a backup audio computer and audio interfaces, and I’ve considered a hot standby setup, but haven’t quite got to the point of setting up the switching. I must put some time into working that out. Not really practical to run separate channels, as I’m already sending 8 to front of house!
Cheers!
Neil
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Yes, the tablet is a Windows 10 machine which runs my own (free) little app called “LivePrompter” (specialized to display and scroll lyrics and chords in time with the song). Both the LivePrompter tablet and the Cantabile laptop are connected to a wifi network (I always have one on stage, since my mixer is remote-controlled via iPads). LivePrompter sends MIDI program changes to Cantabile via rtpMidi and controls song loading in Cantabile. Works extremely well.
If you want to learn more about this, take a look at this thread: Cantabile and LivePrompter - now better together!
Cheers,
Torsten
… and here’s an even more stripped-down but super-powerful Cantabile Rig:
I’ve put together a minimal setup that will work when there’s any kind of 88 key weighted MIDI keyboard in place:
- Cantabile laptop with audio interface (MOTU UltraLite)
- Novation LaunchControl XL for faders and knobs (some will even provide pitch bend and aftertouch via Controller Map filter)
- two pedals (double switch + expression) plus my “red knob” switch
- a little “MIDI Switchbox” I’ve knocked together on a Teensy microcontroller that my pedals plug into. It converts their input to MIDI controller data via USB
- a VoiceLive Touch (backup for my VoiceLive 2) plus microphone
- my Variax (doubles as acoustic in a pinch)
Add some cables and a microphone stand and I could run my complete live set from this equipment. And it will fit in a small suitcase plus a gig bag for the Variax. I could probably take all of it on a flight as cabin baggage …
Cheers,
Torsten
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Cool Torsten!
That Teleprompter Software rocks!
I love the “d_time” function. We’re thinking about playing to metronome/backing tracks so I can program the timing exactly to the song position.
Programming Setlists in a text file is bit freaky… with a little typo the song can’t be found.
(so I have to move to all songs before a gig to see if everything will work fine)
But I think it will work fine. Most of the time the singer of the band will make the setlist, and while the setlist in a txt format it will be 100% compatible and probably easy to work with.
I’ll see if I will be happy with the chordpro format. I used pdf files for years.
(on an old “pre-ipad” type… pen controlled windows computer) Setlists needed to be done within an excel file… double click on the column before the song… and the song will move to the right side of the excel sheet which will be the final setlist. And the Songnames are linked to pdf files on the hard disk. Oldschool. 
The advantage when using pdf files is that I can add a small text box like "play here on beat 1! buddy!) next to the lyrics… and an arrow showing where i need to be careful. 
Question again:
On your picture showing your live rig (cool!) you’ve got the liveprompter software running on all 3 screens… But how do you know cantabile is running fine?
I think I need to know some important things during the gig…
- if cantabile generally works
- which preset is selected
- the next/previous preset)
- if the vst plugins are already loaded
How do you deal with that playing live? If you only have the 8" tablet on your kurzweil for the chords/lyrics you don’t know the state of cantabile!?
(or do you always have the notebook visible and the cantabile screen on the notebook standing next to your keyboard?)
How do YOU deal with selecting presets during a song?
At the moment cantabile doesn’t support automatic program changes. (which I think would be easily to implement… with a marker in the timeline - then add a program change command)
Thanks!
Roelli.
Hey @Roelli,
to be sure:if you take a closer look at my live setup, you’ll see that two of my three screens are not showing LivePrompter, but Cantabile’s show notes view - that’s the laptop (which, in the gig shown sat to the right of my keyboard, but normally is set up somewhere behind me and is often closed with the screen off, so it’s normally just two screens) and the 7’’ screen on the right (which simply mirrors the laptop screen). Only the tablet in the middle shows LivePrompter.
My Cantabile show notes show me:
- which song is selected
- which preset within the song is active and which is next
- some notes on the current keyboard and controller layout
See this thread: Small themes request
Next:
I don’t select presets, but I use song states (and linked song states for duplicates) for the different parts of a song (Intro, verse, chorus 1, verse 2, chorus 2, bridge, …) and step through them via a simple binding in my background rack (CC 67 linked to “next song state (instant)”). CC67 on my master keyboard is triggered by the big red button in the middle of my keyboard. For songs where I play the guitar, I simply add a binding from my sustain pedal to “next song state (instant)”.
See here: What's your preferred method for changing states? - #6 by Torsten
But there is also a (somewhat clunky) way to do automatic program (or state) changes when using a backing track: simply create a MIDI file containing program changes or control changes bound to state change and route them via loopback ports. Put the MIDI file in sync with your backing track, and everything rolls automatically. If you create your backing tracks in a sequencer, creating the MIDI file from the same sequence is a breeze.
See here: Changing State By Song Position - #4 by Torsten
Last on getting the set list file right:
[quote=“Roelli, post:24, topic:633”]
Programming Setlists in a text file is bit freaky… with a little typo the song can’t be found. [/quote]
I run a little batch file within my “setlists” directory to automatically list all songs in my songs directory into a text file (even in the correct code page using a little utility called cp850win.exe).
Lookee here:
del listing.txt for %%a in (..\*.txt) do @echo %%~na>> list1.txt type list1.txt |cp850win.exe > listing.txt del list1.txt
Then I simply cut, paste, and delete lines within the created file “listing.txt” to create my set list → no-typo-guarantee! But of course, no guarantees if you change the file name later ;-)!
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Torsten
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Thanks so much Torsten!
I’ve learned so much from you! 
I think Brad should make a section on his webpage like “success stories” or so… where people can show how they use cantabile. That’s much easier then trying to figure it out by reading the manual.
I think the hole vst live host stuff is pretty much in the beginning. Probably I can download a software one day which already has anything we need to play a live gig out of the box.
Things to improve: Integrate livepromter into cantabile, make it easy to add programchanges into cantabile with markers to change sounds, a better window management (to view the lyircs BIG and the states small), info if the current plugins are loaded completely or still in the load-process.
I think I can live with this screen setup…
As Iam trying to only use one monitor. And clone this monitor to a floor monitor with an LCD display in it so show lyrics/chords to the band. I already built this before and it worked fine with my iPad, but automatic scrolling wasn’t invented yet with the iPad app.
Ok. Hopefully my last questions…:
-
When I tried to move from hardware keys to a vst host I tried to have everything exactly like I had it before. I used a Fantom X6 before, which is wonderful. I started to sample 120 sounds, original ones and sounds I had to make myselfs (for coversongs). I used ‘samplerobot’ to make it easier for me but it would be a hell lot of work to sample everything + I have to redo all efffects later because it doesn’t make sense to sample everything WITH effects. I guess it would last weeks to do it. The advantage would be… every sound just need very few sample ram… maybe 1-5 Megabyte for each sound.
I think that this method generally is somehow the wrong way to do it.
I searched everywhere to find THE vst instrument that works as good as my fantom X6. I never found it.
I like to be able to find standard (bred and butter) sounds quickly without loading 1GB pianos for just ONE sound.
Could you post a list of which plugins you use? Maybe that would help me a lot.
Also… when making sounds which don’t exist - what do you use? -
All Hardware setups I found (here and on youtube) don’t look 100% good to me. Some have a notebook stand, some have 19" racks on the floor, most people have tablets on top of their keyboards… that probably lasts some time to connect everything and it’s probably not that reliable.
Doesn’t someone built their own keyboard so far? With everything included INTO the keyboard? (PC or notebook, interface, usb hub, power connectors…)
Something like the “open labs - NEKO” keyboard.
I was kind of impressed when I’d seen this homebrew keyboard for the first time:
Since that I think that I need something like this. 
I thought about a flightcase type of keyboard (just like the doepfer LMK masterkeyboards). But a bit more depth behind the keyboard. Maybe with the possibility to open the area at the top of the keyboard to get access to the parts inside of the keyboard and… to customize the “frontpanel”.
So that there is a biig frontpanel just as big as the keyboard. But the frontpanel is splitted into small panels. So everyone can make their own setup. For example… add a cheap touchscreen monitor, or even two monitors (one for the livepromter-view and the other for cantabile).
It would be easy to put controllers on top of the keyboard (with velcro) or integrate controllers into the frontpanels so that everything looks smooth and is on the same “surface height”… just like the guys from openlabs did it (or the guy in the video)
Wouldn’t this be the “world-best-solution”? 
And If I need something more… I can easily modify the keyboard by adding another controller, red button or whatever I need. By the way… I own 8 cnc machines so I could customize frontpanels easily, if someone needs anything. I also built a keytar (a clone of the zen-riffer keytar) which worked out very well that I think I could easily build my own keyboard.
3 . Torsten… where can I see you playing live? Looking at your keyboard stand from musicstore cologne… maybe you’re not far away. I think it would be fun to see everything in action.
Thanks so much!
Roelli.
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